Author Topic: Ruin and Preservation  (Read 43261 times)

Andrew the Great

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #270 on: August 04, 2008, 07:38:53 PM »
But then, that raises an interesting question. Why doesn't Ruin always know everything Vin is planning?
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darxbane

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #271 on: August 04, 2008, 07:43:08 PM »
Who's to say It doesnt'?  What has she or anyone else done lately that has worked against Ruin?  It would appear that the last time Ruin didn't get what It wanted was a thousand years prior.
I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

happyman

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #272 on: August 04, 2008, 07:53:58 PM »
Well, we don't know what Ruin can sense and influence and what he can't, beyond some basic guidelines like "He can't affect memories."

For instance, can he sense regular patterns of motion in air and decipher their meaning?  E.g. can he hear, even from a distance?  If so, then there is no need for him to read the memories out of Sazed's metalmind.  With this theory, if Vin says something, Ruin could know about it if he's paying attention.  This is nothing like reading minds and everything like eavesdropping.  He certainly has powers along these lines.  He can modify text on a page, after all, and the simplest way for him to do that would be for him to "read" (sense) the pages directly rather than fiddling with metalminds etc.

In addition, we don't know how he maintains control over the Inquisitors (or his more limited control over Zane).  We do see that he knows what is going on around Zane, so it's possible the Hemalurgy created a link into Zane's mind that actually was readable (or that he can read minds but not change them.)  However, he could also simply be "looking" at the area around Zane via his other "senses."  Similarly, he can control the inquisitors (but not quite completely) but we don't know if that is mind-reading or more like soothing.  For instance, he seems to make Marsh become more like himself, perverting Marsh's values into his own, but this does not necessarily indicate that he can see into Marsh's head, simply that he can "sooth"* away everything except what he wants Marsh to feel and "riot"* those emotions that he wants Marsh to feel; if the "soothing" and "rioting" are strong enough, then he effectively controls Marsh with or without mind reading.

*Quotation marks because I am not at all certain that the power being exerted is literally soothing or rioting.  It's an analogy.
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Qarlin

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #273 on: August 04, 2008, 07:58:53 PM »
One of the major holes I can see in that theory is that in the Mistborn: The Final Empire Annotations, (Prologue part two to be exact.) Brandon mentions how the world is,
Quote
". . . a little bit frozen in time, as you'll find in later books."

That, I think is an important clue...

Czanos

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #274 on: August 04, 2008, 08:23:22 PM »
Quote from: Amazon's Product Description of MB3
Having escaped death at the climax of The Well of Ascension only by becoming a Mistborn himself, Emperor Elend Venture hopes to find clues left behind by the Lord Ruler that will allow him to save the world. Vin is consumed with guilt at having been tricked into releasing the mystic force known as Ruin from the Well. Ruin wants to end the world, and its near omniscience and ability to warp reality make stopping it seem impossible. She can’t even discuss it with Elend lest Ruin learn their plans!

Quote from: Mistborn: The Well of Ascension pg. 453
"You know why I thought you'd save me?" he tried to whisper to her, though he somehow knew that his lips weren't properly forming the words. [. . . ]

"Of course I didn't tell you to kill her," God said.

From these two quotes, I'm pretty sure Ruin can "hear," but not read minds. Hemalurgists are tricky . . . . Zane was speaking those words, but they were unintelligible. Either Ruin pieced together what Zane was trying to say because he's cool like that, or Ruin could read Zane's mind. Elend and Vin could have to keep silent for fear of Ruin overhearing their conversation, or because he could read Vin's mind. If Ruin can see into Hemalurgist's minds though, I would assume that he could only do so to a relative extent as to how much Hemalurgy the person possessed. So he knows basically everything about Inquisitors, knows at least enough about Zane to tell when he's near someone, and knows enough about Vin to make her and Elend not want to risk talking about their plans.
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darxbane

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #275 on: August 04, 2008, 09:25:26 PM »
I agree completely with Czanos.
I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

Andrew the Great

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #276 on: August 04, 2008, 11:46:30 PM »
I do too.

Side note:

Quote from: darxbane
Yes, you pronounce the x. It is not a placeholder

Have you had problems with that in the past? Or is this like a reference to something I'm not catching? Or am I just over-analyzing randomness?
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Miyabi

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #277 on: August 05, 2008, 01:28:12 AM »
But then, that raises an interesting question. Why doesn't Ruin always know everything Vin is planning?
Because he moves the people and influences the people around her. (i.e. Sazed, Marsh, possible Kandra)  He knows what she's going to do because he provides what is needed to make certain stuff happen.
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darxbane

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #278 on: August 05, 2008, 09:23:15 PM »
Yes..  I didn't know till afterwards that x's replace spaces online, so I get Dar Bane all the time, like I killed the Beastmaster or something.

I just want to know what Preservations deal is in all of this.  Ruin does all these manipulative things, and Preservation just seems to do nothing overt.  The mist spirit obviously sides with Preservation, but what a weak comparison.  What nags me the most is that is seems we are being pulled away from any focus on Preservation.  It appears so mundane and weak, yet has been in power to some extent since TLR's ascension. 
I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

happyman

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #279 on: August 05, 2008, 11:34:34 PM »
Quote from: Amazon's Product Description of MB3
Having escaped death at the climax of The Well of Ascension only by becoming a Mistborn himself, Emperor Elend Venture hopes to find clues left behind by the Lord Ruler that will allow him to save the world. Vin is consumed with guilt at having been tricked into releasing the mystic force known as Ruin from the Well. Ruin wants to end the world, and its near omniscience and ability to warp reality make stopping it seem impossible. She can’t even discuss it with Elend lest Ruin learn their plans!
This quote is essentially from the book-flap.  I don't think that we can run too far with it, accuracy-wise.

Quote from: Mistborn: The Well of Ascension pg. 453
"You know why I thought you'd save me?" he tried to whisper to her, though he somehow knew that his lips weren't properly forming the words. [. . . ]

"Of course I didn't tell you to kill her," God said.

From these two quotes, I'm pretty sure Ruin can "hear," but not read minds. Hemalurgists are tricky . . . . Zane was speaking those words, but they were unintelligible. Either Ruin pieced together what Zane was trying to say because he's cool like that, or Ruin could read Zane's mind. Elend and Vin could have to keep silent for fear of Ruin overhearing their conversation, or because he could read Vin's mind. If Ruin can see into Hemalurgist's minds though, I would assume that he could only do so to a relative extent as to how much Hemalurgy the person possessed. So he knows basically everything about Inquisitors, knows at least enough about Zane to tell when he's near someone, and knows enough about Vin to make her and Elend not want to risk talking about their plans.

This is a good find; well done.  It certainly proves either hearing or mind-reading.  It doesn't seem to eliminate either, though; if Ruin can read words on a page by "touch," and then get them properly formatted to replace the old words, then he's got some serious processing-power mojo going on.
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Andrew the Great

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #280 on: August 06, 2008, 01:03:15 AM »
I agree with Darx... Preservation seems far to wimpy from what we've seen. So, I guess, the question is, what have we seen preservation do, and what are it's abilities based on these things?

I can't remember anything.

I would guess Ruin has limited access to Zane's mind through his hemalurgy. So, it's access to Vin's mind would be even more limited. It would have virtually full access to inquisitors.
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GreenMonsta

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #281 on: August 06, 2008, 02:26:07 AM »
I think the problem with Preservations down play lays in the fact that everything that we know about in this world Preservation has always been there. We dont know exactly what Preservation does because we have never been without it. Had Ruin been loose for the past thousand years and Preservation locked away we would notice the effects of Preservation more than the effects of Ruin, this is not to say we don't see them, its more like we over look them. It is quite possible that Preservation has had a hand in alot more things than we realize at his point and all we need to see it is a little concreate deffinition as to what Preservation actualy is, or to put it better what Preservation is capable of.
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Miyabi

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #282 on: August 06, 2008, 03:37:53 AM »
I think the problem with Preservations down play lays in the fact that everything that we know about in this world Preservation has always been there. We dont know exactly what Preservation does because we have never been without it. Had Ruin been loose for the past thousand years and Preservation locked away we would notice the effects of Preservation more than the effects of Ruin, this is not to say we don't see them, its more like we over look them. It is quite possible that Preservation has had a hand in alot more things than we realize at his point and all we need to see it is a little concreate deffinition as to what Preservation actualy is, or to put it better what Preservation is capable of.
That's a good point.  It's all about perspective.
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Czanos

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #283 on: August 06, 2008, 09:31:10 AM »
Okay, I read through a good chunk of Well of Ascension today, and thought I'd make some points.

First one's a rather small point, I think . . .
Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 402
Only one way to win a knife fight against a guy with a sword . . . Elend thought, gripping his knife. The thought, oddly, hadn't come from one of his trainers, or even from Vin. He wasn't sure where it came from, but he trusted it.
Preservation, Ruin, or Elend's near death instincts?

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 421
The Rabzeen and the Anamnesor were both mythological figures vaguely familiar to Sazed--But they were only two among hosts. Until the discovery of the rubbing, there had been no way to connect their names to the Hero of Ages.
Apparently Terris wasn't the only one of the fourteen lands which had prophecies about the Hero of Ages. Terris was probably just the place that had the most accurate/manipulated prophecies because of their close proximity to the Well of Ascension.

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 423
[. . .] Sazed had four copies of the transcription. All were missing the same exact chunk.
[Tindwyl held up a sheet] one that had only half the transcription on it, ending near the middle of the page. A hole had been torn directly in the middle of the page. [. . .]
"How is this possible?" Tindwyl whispered. "How could someone know so much of our work--so much of us?"
"And yet," Sazed asked, "how can they know so little of our abilities? I have the entire transcription stored in my metamind. I can remember it right now."
So. Sazed and Tindwyl have several copies of the manuscript, they've been in the room with them the whole time, (probably) and the tears are all exactly the same. It's pretty obvious to me that the removal of these pieces of paper was done by one of the two entities, but which one? Preservation might have done it to lead Sazed and Tindwyl to second guess that line, to pay more attention to it, or maybe to have to go back and read Kwaan's plate again. Ruin could have done it so they had to tap into their metalminds and retrieve the quote. Keep in mind, they never found those pieces of paper which went missing initially. Sazed only found the corner of the page which had been ripped after he rewrote it from his metalmind.
This leads me to believe it was Ruin's doing. By destroying that sentence, Sazed had to tap his metalmind, where Ruin could change what he wished. I don't have any idea why it was torn later on, perhaps Preservation tore it and left the piece where Sazed would find it for some reason.

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 435
[. . .] While the Lord Ruler ruled, society could not progress. He kept a stabilizing hand on the empire, but it was an oppressive hand as well.  Fashion stayed remarkably unchanged for a thousand years, the noblemen always trying to fit the Lord Ruler's ideals. Architecture and science did not progress, for the Lord Ruler frowned on change and invention.
Evidence for The Lord Ruler and Preservation being connected somehow.

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 482
"It's the mist spirit," Vin said, walking by and dumping an armload of wood beside the firepit. "It's chasing us."
Now why would the mist spirit chase these three? What would Preservation stand to gain by following Vin, Elend, or Spook? You'd think that it would be more focused on preventing anyone from finding the Well of Ascension within Luthadel, so why does it follow them? Is it just because Ruin seems to have taken such an interest in Vin?

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 491
Yet [the mists] did. They farther they'd gotten from Luthadel, the longer the mists lingered in the mornings.
If the daytime mists are part of the Deepness, and that's part of Ruin, then this could be taken as proof that Preservation had the strongest force in Luthadel, on top the Well of Ascension. Even more proof of the Lord Ruler/Preservation connection?

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 492
And yet it was real. She could feel it, and she could see it--see it as it looked up, meeting her gaze with invisible eyes.
Hateful eyes.
It raised an insubstantial arm, and Vin saw something flash. She reacted immediately, whipping out a dagger, bursting into the tent and swinging. Her blow met something tangible in the mist spirit's hand. A metallic sound rang in the calm air, and Vin felt a powerful, numbing chill in her arm. The hairs across her entire body prickled.
Okay, first off, why did the mist spirit attack Elend? Just to try and get at Vin? Why does it seem to hate her? Perhaps this is because it knows Vin is going to go the Well of Ascension, and it is angry at her for leaving Luthadel. Or perhaps it doesn't like married people. Something is up there. And for reference, another similar event happens on page 121, and during that episode Vin feels a pain moving from her ear to her head.

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pgs 529-530
No. She knew the Lord Ruler had built the Inquisitors with a weakness: Remove a particular spike from their back, and they'd die. He had also built the kandra with a weakness. The koloss had to have a weakness, too. [. . .]
Cousins indeed. The Lord Ruler had built the koloss with a weakness--the same weakness as the kandra. He had given himself a way to keep them in check.
Okay, based off of this, I pull out a few assumptions. First off, The Lord Ruler probably created koloss and kandra with the power from the Well of Ascension. The fact that they're so similar in their weakness, and the fact that The Lord Ruler was the only Allomancer with enough power to control them (Without duralumin of course.) makes this pretty obvious to me. However, what's up with The Lord Ruler and Hemalurgy/Inquistors? If he made them with the power from the Well, I'd think he would have made them with the same weakness. Instead, they have a totally different (Hemalurgic?) weakness. But on the flop side, why do Inquisitor's have the weakness at all? Zane survives just fine with only one spike, and it's not the linchpin spike. It also went right through his heart. There's always another secret.

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 555
"It's what I would do," Vin said. "If I knew the power would return, if I wanted to preserve it. I'd hide the Well. [. . .]"
More The Lord Ruler/Preservation stuff.

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 545
I'm going mad, [Elend] thought, hands beginning to shake. The mist figure stopped a few feet in front of him and then raised its right arm and pointed.
North. Away from Luthadel.
Why would the mist spirit want Elend to go north? As far as we know, there's nothing important up there. Maybe to draw Vin away from the Well? But then why does it seem to hate her? Is there maybe another reason the mist spirit appeared to Elend? And why not do it while Lestibournes was around? (Also, it appears something, maybe the mist spirit, made a noise right before this happened.) And then right after that, there's . . . .

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 545
The thing pointed again. Elend cocked his head. It certainly didn't seem threatening. In fact, he felt an unnatural feeling of peace coming from it.
Allomancy? he thought. It's Pulling on my emotions!
The mist spirit has Allomancy, it would appear. Or at least, it can Pull on Elend's emotions. (Or possibly Soothe them.) On top of that there's that whole bronze pulse deal. It makes it pretty clear to me that the mist spirit is connected to Allomancy somehow. The mist spirit also does similar things in it's appearance to Sazed at the end of the book. Page 561 for the curious.

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 500
"We didn't," she said firmly, standing, looking south. Focusing, she could feel the thumpings, washing across her. Pulling her.
The Well of Ascension is a Pulling metal? Just a thought.

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 468
"Well, I've seen [the mist spirit] again," Vin said, "It's like a ghost, formed from the patterns in mist. I see it all the time, watching me, following me. And I hear those rhythms in my head--majestic, powerful thumpings, like Allomantic pulses. Only, I don't need bronze anymore to hear them.
Don't need bronze anymore eh? But, don't dismiss Allomancy entirely.
Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 527
I have to find the Well, [Vin] thought with determination, burning bronze, the thumpings--which she'd been ignoring during the battle--becoming loud to her ears.
It appears that bronze still makes the thumpings more prominent. And let's go way back to the roots here, with . . .
Quote from: Mistborn: The Final Empire pg 522
For a moment, she thought she felt something. Something
very strange—a slow pulsing, like a distant drum, unlike any
Allomantic rhythm she’d felt before. But it wasn’t coming
from Kelsier. It was distant . . . far away. She focused harder,
trying to pick out the direction it was coming from.
That one sure struck me as odd.
So what's up with the Allomancy link here? And if bronze lets Vin hear the pulsings, why can she later hear them without it? This is one of my favorites, and I'm pretty much clueless here. So, moving on . . .

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 165
"Kill him," God said. "He's really not that important."
God (Ruin) obviously knows quite a lot about Zane's surroundings. He occasionally says all these little random things about people, things that lead me to believe his senses are very acute.

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 557
Vin shook her head. This felt right.
Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 563
The smoke didn't choke her, as she expected. There was something oddly welcoming about it.
What's with all this rightness? And speaking of that smoke . . .

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 563
It had ended here, at a second, slightly smaller cavern that was clogged with a thick, dark smoke. It didn't seep out of the cavern, as it should have, but billowed and churned upon itself.
Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 144
It isn't a shadow
This dark thing that follows me, the thing that only I can see--it's isn't really a shadow. It is blackish and translucent, but it doesn't have a shadowlike solid outline. It's insubstantial--wispy and formless. Like it's made out of black fog.
Or mist, perhaps.
See a resemblance there? This leads credence to my theory that that blackish smoke is what the Deepness had become right before The Lord Ruler ascended. It's dark and most people would find it terrifying and formless, and it's blackness might make them not associate it with something as simple as mist.

Okay, I think that's all for now. Maybe I'll post a few things in the Hemalurgy thread, but I don't have a whole lot there. Anyways, what are your guys thoughts on this stuff? Ruin and Preservation are complicated, that's for sure.
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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #284 on: August 06, 2008, 03:00:54 PM »
First one's a rather small point, I think . . .
Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 402
Only one way to win a knife fight against a guy with a sword . . . Elend thought, gripping his knife. The thought, oddly, hadn't come from one of his trainers, or even from Vin. He wasn't sure where it came from, but he trusted it.
Preservation, Ruin, or Elend's near death instincts?
I definitely don't think it's Elend's near death instincts. With Ruin talking through these sorts of voices, this voice must be a manipulation either by Ruin or Preservation.

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 421
The Rabzeen and the Anamnesor were both mythological figures vaguely familiar to Sazed--But they were only two among hosts. Until the discovery of the rubbing, there had been no way to connect their names to the Hero of Ages.
Apparently Terris wasn't the only one of the fourteen lands which had prophecies about the Hero of Ages. Terris was probably just the place that had the most accurate/manipulated prophecies because of their close proximity to the Well of Ascension.
Fourteen? Where did fourteen come from?

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 557
Vin shook her head. This felt right.
Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 563
The smoke didn't choke her, as she expected. There was something oddly welcoming about it.
What's with all this rightness? And speaking of that smoke . . .

Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 563
It had ended here, at a second, slightly smaller cavern that was clogged with a thick, dark smoke. It didn't seep out of the cavern, as it should have, but billowed and churned upon itself.
Quote from: The Well of Ascension pg 144
It isn't a shadow
This dark thing that follows me, the thing that only I can see--it's isn't really a shadow. It is blackish and translucent, but it doesn't have a shadowlike solid outline. It's insubstantial--wispy and formless. Like it's made out of black fog.
Or mist, perhaps.
See a resemblance there? This leads credence to my theory that that blackish smoke is what the Deepness had become right before The Lord Ruler ascended. It's dark and most people would find it terrifying and formless, and it's blackness might make them not associate it with something as simple as mist.

Okay, I think that's all for now. Maybe I'll post a few things in the Hemalurgy thread, but I don't have a whole lot there. Anyways, what are your guys thoughts on this stuff? Ruin and Preservation are complicated, that's for sure.
Quote

Black fog... That is very important, but I don't know why. I do believe, however, that the mist spirit that Vin saw was not blackish in any way.

Also, I checked in the epigraphs of Mistborn 1, and the quote is the same there as it appears in WoA. That means Ruin did not manipulate it.
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