Author Topic: Ruin and Preservation  (Read 43189 times)

happyman

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #255 on: August 01, 2008, 10:40:09 PM »
I can't help but suspect that in some very deep sense, all of the magic systems are connected or have similar foundations.  The fact that

(1) two of the systems are known to use the exact same metals with the exact same alloys and
(2) there seems to be a connection between what Feruchemists can do with Pewter and Allomancers can do with Pewter and
(3)  the Allomantic time-based  metal Atium can be used to store age (a time-based human attribute)

all seem too much to be a coincidence.  Perhaps in some way the powers associated with a metal are intrinsic, but the ways of accessing them are different?

Anyway, I strongly suspect that the Hemalurgical system uses the exact same metals and alloys.  It would be a nice, clean way of interrelating the magic systems.

In addition, we know that somehow the mists are related to the magic systems.  It's no wonder they have something in common.
The only problem with this is that Brandon himself said that they are all different and NOT connected, which kinda throws a lot of this off kilter.


Do you have a direct quote of where he said that?  That seems like a rather overbroad interpretation of what I remember, especially given the three points I described above.
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VegasDev

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #256 on: August 01, 2008, 11:01:44 PM »
The only quote I can dig up is this one, although I seem to remember EUOL saying that they were related but seperate.

Quote from: EUOL
All three systems use metal in different ways, and all three draw power for the user from different places.
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Miyabi

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #257 on: August 02, 2008, 03:53:43 AM »
The only quote I can dig up is this one, although I seem to remember EUOL saying that they were related but seperate.

Quote from: EUOL
All three systems use metal in different ways, and all three draw power for the user from different places.
Yeah, it was something like that that I remembered.  I was just rying to pull it off the top of my head and I remembered it being a bit more extreme than that. haha
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Chaos

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #258 on: August 02, 2008, 06:16:25 AM »
Hmmm. VegasDev, where'd you dig up that quote?

That confirms what I've usually thought about. The sixteen metals (if you look in the official Fanart thread on like page 11, you can see Brandon posting some of his art which has the icons for all the sixteen metals used in magic) are interconnected. And speaking of "draw power for the user from different places", that was the basis to my Hemalurgy theory. Er, not to sound holier-than-thou. Sorry about that. The point is, that quote does verify the theory--which is good, because I can be known to go way off topic sometimes. It's good to know we are rooted in some fact occasionally.

Except for the mists. He said that had something to do with the foundation of the whole world and the magic systems.

As for the rest, I realize it could have been for simplicity's sake, but I was wondering if there was a deeper reasoning behind it. Guess I'll have to wait until the last annotation of Hero of Ages to know for sure.

The Mists are something I have thought about for a while, so forgive me if I repeat another one of my previously mentioned theories (I really need to start creating some new ones, but oh well. Hopefully, if some newer members haven't read the beginning posts in topics, it can be informative), I had thought that the mists themselves give the metal their power. The way a Allomancer/Feruchemist/Hemalurgist channels the power depends on how they utilize the mists. For example, Allomancers pull the mists towards them and Hemalurgists repel them.

But, uh, that's more of a discussion for The Mists topic.
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VegasDev

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #259 on: August 02, 2008, 07:27:21 AM »
Hmmm. VegasDev, where'd you dig up that quote?

Brandon has all sorts of quotes sprinkled throughout the different forums, annotations, other websites, etc. Can't remember where I grabbed that one.  If you missed that one then there are probably a bunch that you have missed. You mentioned Hemalurgy, here's one from the writing group forum before the book was finished:

Quote from: EUOL
Sazed's power is the one I'm considering changing.  It is called Hemalurgy.  Now, I like the way this sounds.  However, it doesn't quite fit in meaning with Sazed's powers.  (The Hema, which should evoke thoughts of 'blood' has rightly drawn complaints from readers.)

However, Hemalurgy DOES fit quite well with the third (mostly unmentioned magic system) used by the Steel Inquisitors.

Your best bet is to click this little button at the top of the page called search, of course you'd still have to go through annotations, entire web etc.  ;)
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Miyabi

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #260 on: August 02, 2008, 07:37:44 AM »
The Mists are something I have thought about for a while, so forgive me if I repeat another one of my previously mentioned theories (I really need to start creating some new ones, but oh well. Hopefully, if some newer members haven't read the beginning posts in topics, it can be informative), I had thought that the mists themselves give the metal their power. The way a Allomancer/Feruchemist/Hemalurgist channels the power depends on how they utilize the mists. For example, Allomancers pull the mists towards them and Hemalurgists repel them.

But, uh, that's more of a discussion for The Mists topic.
Yes, this was kinda talked about a little bit, though it wasn't looked too deeply into.
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Czanos

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #261 on: August 02, 2008, 08:04:50 AM »
Chaos, the only problem I've got with that theory is if the mists are so essential to all the magic systems, why does the magic still work when the mists aren't out? Even if the mists are still there, and just invisible during the daylight, during pre-Ascension times Rashek and co.'s Feruchemy worked fine when Alendi said that they were above the Deepness/mists. (And welcome back by the way. I haven't seen you posting in a little while.)



--- Discussion continued from page 30 of the Comprehensive Hemalurgy Thread ---

In response to Chaos' very long late-night post. . .

I agree with almost all of what you've got there, Chaos, but there are a few points I'd like to make. Let's see . . .

. . . (Side note: We also don't see any mist spirits in MB1. The Lord Ruler could have a similar hold on Preservation to prevent the manifestation of such a mist spirit.). . .
Another possibility is that Preservation was just reluctant to do any more changing than it had to in order to keep Ruin at bay, and The Lord Ruler was just doing a good enough job of preserving the world that Preservation felt no need to manifest itself if it didn't have to.

The Lord Ruler, both knowing about Hemalurgy and of Ruin's existence [. . .], would not create an army of super-Mistborn like the Steel Inquisitors if he knew that Ruin could so easily get a hold on them. I think the logical explanation is either: 1. He was not aware of Ruin's power to influence metals, merely that it was killing mists or 2. The Lord Ruler was aware of that ability of Ruin, but, he never anticipated on actually dying.  . . .
I'm pretty sure that the second option here is a lot more plausible. The Lord Ruler was nothing if not arrogant, and Kwaan knew of the abilities of which you speak, and I think he would have told Rashek as much as he could, especially after he ascended.

Now that I think about it, Ruin must have some way to sense what people are thinking. He couldn't manipulate them, but merely be aware of them. . . .
Doesn't it say on the jacket flap of Hero of Ages that Elend and Vin must struggle to fight Ruin without even speaking of their plans to each other? If that's the case, I highly doubt Ruin could read minds, otherwise what's the point of not speaking? Perhaps Ruin could read minds while inside of the Well of Ascension, but not now that he's free. (Maybe because of the whole omnipotence factor the Well of Ascension seems to have.)

Other than that, I wholeheartedly agree with your post, it makes a lot of sense that Ruin couldn't affect the world while The Lord Ruler reigned.
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Chaos

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #262 on: August 02, 2008, 03:39:14 PM »
Chaos, the only problem I've got with that theory is if the mists are so essential to all the magic systems, why does the magic still work when the mists aren't out? Even if the mists are still there, and just invisible during the daylight, during pre-Ascension times Rashek and co.'s Feruchemy worked fine when Alendi said that they were above the Deepness/mists. (And welcome back by the way. I haven't seen you posting in a little while.)

I've just been a lot more passive in my posting habits, that's all.

Yes, that is the common-sense against the mists being the basis of the magic systems. However, Brandon's the one who mentioned that the Mists are foundational to everything, so I'm just trying to figure out how that would work. It could just be pointless speculation, because we cannot be sure of any of the mists' true nature (what it's made of, how it relates to the magics, etc.) until Mistborn 3. Still, I think it's more plausible than anything else.

Quote
. . . (Side note: We also don't see any mist spirits in MB1. The Lord Ruler could have a similar hold on Preservation to prevent the manifestation of such a mist spirit.). . .
Another possibility is that Preservation was just reluctant to do any more changing than it had to in order to keep Ruin at bay, and The Lord Ruler was just doing a good enough job of preserving the world that Preservation felt no need to manifest itself if it didn't have to.

It's impossible to be certain. We know nothing of Preservation's true self--we can't even be sure that the mist spirit is even Preservation.

Quote
The Lord Ruler, both knowing about Hemalurgy and of Ruin's existence [. . .], would not create an army of super-Mistborn like the Steel Inquisitors if he knew that Ruin could so easily get a hold on them. I think the logical explanation is either: 1. He was not aware of Ruin's power to influence metals, merely that it was killing mists or 2. The Lord Ruler was aware of that ability of Ruin, but, he never anticipated on actually dying.  . . .
I'm pretty sure that the second option here is a lot more plausible. The Lord Ruler was nothing if not arrogant, and Kwaan knew of the abilities of which you speak, and I think he would have told Rashek as much as he could, especially after he ascended.

Now that I think on it, that would be the most plausible. If you had lived for a thousand years, you would never anticipate on actually dying.

Quote
Now that I think about it, Ruin must have some way to sense what people are thinking. He couldn't manipulate them, but merely be aware of them. . . .
Doesn't it say on the jacket flap of Hero of Ages that Elend and Vin must struggle to fight Ruin without even speaking of their plans to each other? If that's the case, I highly doubt Ruin could read minds, otherwise what's the point of not speaking? Perhaps Ruin could read minds while inside of the Well of Ascension, but not now that he's free. (Maybe because of the whole omnipotence factor the Well of Ascension seems to have.)

I had forgotten about that point when I was writing my post last night. Clearly, Ruin wouldn't be able to read minds in that sense, but perhaps he has other tools at his disposal which allowed him to figure out Vin's dispositions.
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Andrew the Great

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #263 on: August 02, 2008, 06:01:30 PM »
Looks like most of the points I was going to make have been made for me. I would still like to point out, however, that even if Ruin can't read minds (which I assume), it is very good at reading people's actions to determine their thoughts. I say this because it does know so much of what it needs to, as Chaos mentioned.
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happyman

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #264 on: August 04, 2008, 02:03:13 AM »
Actually, not reading minds seems to be one of the things that the magic in this world can't do.  EUOL makes this point repeatedly with respect to the emotional allomantic powers.  In addition, Ruin didn't change memories, which would seem to be a good indicator that he can't read minds.

Question:  is this why memories remain unchanged?  Because Ruin has no ability to read minds and thus wouldn't know what to change?  Apparently metalminds are more susceptible.
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Czanos

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #265 on: August 04, 2008, 02:46:25 AM »
Aha. Perhaps that's how Ruin knew what Vin's suspicions were. Vin confided in Sazed quite a bit, and Sazed could have put the memories in one of his metalminds.
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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #266 on: August 04, 2008, 05:54:05 PM »
That actually makes a lot of sense, though I don't know why Sazed would store that particular memory...
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SarahG

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #267 on: August 04, 2008, 06:27:07 PM »
Well, he and Tindwyl were trying to decipher the prophecies; it seems like Vin's suspicions relate to that subject.  Seems plausible to me.
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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #268 on: August 04, 2008, 06:40:07 PM »
That actually does make sense. He talks to her in the middle of a session of deciphering prophecies, stores said session, and there we go, ruin has access to Sazed's conversation with Vin.
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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #269 on: August 04, 2008, 06:56:16 PM »
Ruin may also have access to Vin's thoughts through her earring.  Ruin can influence people with hemalurgy and can influence the power stored in Metalminds, but can't alter metal itself.  Interesting.  You know Reen's "voice" in Vin's head is not always just her imagination, right?  Sometimes it is a little too sentient. Almost God-like, if you will.
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