Author Topic: Ruin and Preservation  (Read 43196 times)

Miyabi

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #225 on: July 23, 2008, 05:23:22 PM »
I just found an interesting quote that may challenge the theory about TLR doing everything from Preservation.  It's when the Inquisitors are appealing to take over authority from the obligators.

MB1, p.602
Quote
The Lord Ruler waved a dismissive hand.  "It is good for them to get purged every century or so.  It fosters instability, keeps the aristocracy from growing too confident.  Usually, I let them kill each other in one of their foolish wars, but these riots will work."
emphasis added

Instability sounds more like Ruin to me than Preservation.  I guess it could be seen as a way to preserve his rule, though, in that it weakens the nobility's security and therefore their power to challenge him.
Whereas this is an interesting point, we must also consider that sometimes in order to preserve some things must be destroyed.  In order to preserve life we kill cancerous cells.  In order to preserve natural habitat we have destroyed companies.  It's all a matter of perspective, which you did kind of mention.
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SarahG

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #226 on: July 23, 2008, 09:08:47 PM »
[Whereas this is an interesting point, we must also consider that sometimes in order to preserve some things must be destroyed.  In order to preserve life we kill cancerous cells.  In order to preserve natural habitat we have destroyed companies.  It's all a matter of perspective, which you did kind of mention.

True, but I was focusing on the word "instability", not the killing or destruction.  If killing were inherently antipathetic to Preservation, then I don't think anyone would be arguing that TLR's works were entirely of Preservation, because he was responsible for a LOT of killing.  The word instability to me connotes chaos, entropy, things changing and disintegrating rather than staying the same.  If I were TLR (thank goodness I'm not) and I was above all concerned for Preservation, then I would not intentionally stir up the nobility every century or so.  The constancy-to-the-point-of-stagnation that we've been arguing TLR displays would be better served by long lines of noble families, generation after generation of the strongest houses staying strong.  It's not like they can actually challenge TLR for his throne, since they don't have his combination of powers.
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Czanos

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #227 on: July 24, 2008, 04:10:30 AM »
One of the major holes I can see in that theory is that in the Mistborn: The Final Empire Annotations, (Prologue part two to be exact.) Brandon mentions how the world is,
Quote
". . . a little bit frozen in time, as you'll find in later books."
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Miyabi

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #228 on: July 24, 2008, 04:38:44 AM »
[Whereas this is an interesting point, we must also consider that sometimes in order to preserve some things must be destroyed.  In order to preserve life we kill cancerous cells.  In order to preserve natural habitat we have destroyed companies.  It's all a matter of perspective, which you did kind of mention.

True, but I was focusing on the word "instability", not the killing or destruction.  If killing were inherently antipathetic to Preservation, then I don't think anyone would be arguing that TLR's works were entirely of Preservation, because he was responsible for a LOT of killing.  The word instability to me connotes chaos, entropy, things changing and disintegrating rather than staying the same.  If I were TLR (thank goodness I'm not) and I was above all concerned for Preservation, then I would not intentionally stir up the nobility every century or so.  The constancy-to-the-point-of-stagnation that we've been arguing TLR displays would be better served by long lines of noble families, generation after generation of the strongest houses staying strong.  It's not like they can actually challenge TLR for his throne, since they don't have his combination of powers.
Yes, but the instability within the nobility causes them to not gain as much power and keeps him at the head.  Preserving his rein as well as his ability to keep preserving the land.
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JCHancey

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #229 on: July 24, 2008, 05:58:16 AM »
How he created the final empire was more or less through chaos. He destroyed his enemies with the koloss and created the ashmounts, changed the face of the land. Through chaos came stability.
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MajSpike

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #230 on: July 24, 2008, 06:52:01 AM »
TLR has always allowed for violence to occur. It is a major pillar that keeps his reign. Now this violence can come against the powerful, the nobility, in the form of nobleman house wars every century or so. House wars prevent any one House or alliance of Houses from becoming strong enough to challenge TLR’s rule. The violence can also come in the form of the severe skaa oppression that we’ve seen. Skaa being worked to death or beheaded in mandatory public executions is a very effective way of keeping the large segment of the population downtrodden and unwilling to rebel. Sounds to me like a wonderfully effective way of preserving the world as it is.

SarahG

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #231 on: July 24, 2008, 03:33:38 PM »
But, see, he doesn't NEED the instability and chaos and violence to keep his throne.  His combination of magical traits makes him so intrinsically powerful that it wouldn't matter how big-headed the nobility or anyone else got.  He could just soothe or slaughter any opposition, without lifting a finger.  So it seems to me he fosters the instability not because he needs it to keep his throne, but because he likes it.
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Reaves

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #232 on: July 24, 2008, 04:04:39 PM »
But, see, he doesn't NEED the instability and chaos and violence to keep his throne. His combination of magical traits makes him so intrinsically powerful that it wouldn't matter how big-headed the nobility or anyone else got. He could just soothe or slaughter any opposition, without lifting a finger. So it seems to me he fosters the instability not because he needs it to keep his throne, but because he likes it.

If he liked instability would he not just let them rebel and then kill them? He may have incredible magical power and can crush any opposition but that does not mean he likes or wants opposition.
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Miyabi

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #233 on: July 24, 2008, 04:27:56 PM »
But, see, he doesn't NEED the instability and chaos and violence to keep his throne.  His combination of magical traits makes him so intrinsically powerful that it wouldn't matter how big-headed the nobility or anyone else got.  He could just soothe or slaughter any opposition, without lifting a finger.  So it seems to me he fosters the instability not because he needs it to keep his throne, but because he likes it.
He was afraid of people gaining enough power to learn his secrets and figure out how to kill him.  Where he hid this for a thousand years, until Kell and Vin came along.  He was trying to avoid a situation like that.  Therefore he NEEDED the instability to keep his throne.
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GreenMonsta

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #234 on: July 24, 2008, 07:14:56 PM »
the only thing the Lord Ruler needed to keep his throne was not to come up against a person who was Mistborne and also Humerology. the only reason Vin won was because of her special abilities. if she didnt have that combination she would have lost. that revelation was also unintentional. they didnt plan that Vin would have this other ability to help her with the Lord Ruler it just turned out that way. so if the Lord Ruler didnt come up against Vin at that moment more likely than not he would have retained his throne for who knows how long
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Miyabi

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #235 on: July 24, 2008, 07:59:04 PM »
the only thing the Lord Ruler needed to keep his throne was not to come up against a person who was Mistborne and also Humerology. the only reason Vin won was because of her special abilities. if she didnt have that combination she would have lost. that revelation was also unintentional. they didnt plan that Vin would have this other ability to help her with the Lord Ruler it just turned out that way. so if the Lord Ruler didnt come up against Vin at that moment more likely than not he would have retained his throne for who knows how long
True, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't afraid of the possibility of someone figuring out his weakness.
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GreenMonsta

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #236 on: July 24, 2008, 08:27:18 PM »
ok i guess i agree to an extent. that extent being that any person or body of people that have power tend to protect it. the last thing they would want is for someone/anyone to know an effective way of taking that power from them. even elend is guilty of this due to his not wanting to give up being king, although he wants power over people to help the common good it doesnt change that he wanted to retain the power. not that your wrong but i find that when a point is generally universal then it usaully is arleady understood and excepted. i can however sound like a jerk so forgive me
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Czanos

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #237 on: July 24, 2008, 08:29:34 PM »
Actually, he just needed to stay away from any really powerful Mistborn. Brandon states in the Chapter Thirty-Eight Part III Annotation that . . .

Quote
[Pushing or pulling on metals inside of people's bodies] is a matter of degree of power.

He also states that Vin has to draw on the mists to get enough power to do this, but implies that if someone was strong enough Allomantically they could do it themselves. So by allowing the nobility to fight each other every once in a while, he kills off all of the most powerful Allomancers in the Final Empire, thus preventing one of them from ever becoming strong enough to affect metals in another person's body.

And also, just because The Lord Ruler touched upon Preservation's (Or Ruin's for that matter.) power does not mean every action he does is dictated by them. I believe that The Lord Ruler upon entering the Well of Ascension saw exactly how the Deepness worked, (As it was well upon the land when he ascended.) and through it saw Ruin. Being the "moral" man all men believe themselves to be, he figured out how to stop the deepness (Create an environment where Preservation is loose in the world.) And used the power of the Well to do it.

From then on, whatever else The Lord Ruler did, he would be trying to foster a place both where he was dominant and where Preservation was loose, but not because he had to, because he was trying to do the right thing and prevent the Deepness from ever returning.
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GreenMonsta

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #238 on: July 24, 2008, 08:34:52 PM »
I believe that The Lord Ruler upon entering the Well of Ascension saw exactly how the Deepness worked, (As it was well upon the land when he ascended.) and through it saw Ruin. Being the "moral" man all men believe themselves to be, he figured out how to stop the deepness (Create an environment where Preservation is loose in the world.) And used the power of the Well to do it.


ok so if this were true than why did Vin not see to the core of the issue with Ruin and Preservation while she was in the WoA??? i see your point about having the powerfull allomancers in the city fight eachother to maintain a low populace of any powerful mistborn but i dont exactly follow the Lord Rulers ability to see the effect of the deepness and therefore make an informed decison on how best to prevent Ruin from escaping but also combating the deepness
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Czanos

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #239 on: July 24, 2008, 08:41:23 PM »
The justification I have for that is that when Vin went into the Well of Ascension, the Deepness wasn't a hugely powerful force. Things like the weather around the Final Empire, and the amount of life on the planet, those were the largest facts, the ones she got. Also, Elend was dying there, taking up her attention, and she was going to give up the power regardless.

Whereas when The Lord Ruler entered the Well, the Deepness was probably the most prominent aspect of the world. Through Alendi's logbook, we learn that the Deepness was killing the world off very quickly, and was covering it day and night, the only way to escape it was to climb some of the highest mountains on the planet. The Deepness was just a much larger force in the world when The Lord Ruler went in, and he probably didn't have the love of his life dying right next to the Well either.
I came because I heard stories, tales of a lengendary man.
A man who was known as the Lord of the Mists, a man they named Survivor.
A man called Hope.