Author Topic: Ruin and Preservation  (Read 43267 times)

Comatose

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #180 on: July 14, 2008, 12:26:07 AM »
I also think, that Mists melting or vanishing, looks a great deal different then mist being repelled: the way the churn for one thing, vanishing that patterns would simply cease, repelling, the mist would swirl AWAY from the person, thus if they were vanishing, Elend would have said, they are dissappearing around you, and not you're pushing them away.

Back on track to Ruin and Preservation
I'm still going on about my "preservations inside a person theory, and I think it must be in Vin, if anyone, simply for her supernatural allomancy powers.  There's something special about her, and what is it?  The Sazed angle works much better with the "What is Ruin looking for, and why they are using keepers though.  PErhpas Ruin trapped Preservation in a feruchemist, but that feruchemist's children or grandchildren, had no feruchemy, and thus they were not hunted by the lord ruler as much, and managed to slip through the cracks early on and is one of Vin's ancestors.  Ruin expects that PReservation's host's Feruchmey would have passed throught the Generations with Preservation, but it didn't, and now PReservations inside of an allomncer, where Ruin would never look for it!

Gee, that sounds crazy even to me.
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Andrew the Great

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #181 on: July 14, 2008, 12:32:22 AM »
the only thing is, it doesn't make sense for mist to be attracted when it is being burned. It DOES make sense for it to be dissapearing, melting away, or vanishing, which would look like it is being repelled. I have gone back and forth, back and forth on whether this is hemalurgy or allomancy, and there are arguments both ways. Right now my current opinion is that is is hemalurgy.

Surely we've already established that it's allomancy? Reaves, we had this very discussion on page 13 of the hemalurgy thread. I'll provide the quotes that were used there as well. My initial post on the matter...

All right, due to chaos' request that the discussion from "the mists" be moved over here, my reply is here. Reaves, I believe that at the same time Vin is noticing how Zane can hover with Steelpushes, she remarks that doing that takes long hours of practice to learn enough control. Not that no one else could do it. As for Vin drawing on the mists, quote from Mistborn 1 Annotations, Chapter 38 part 3.

Quote
The same is true for Allomancy. The vast majority of Allomancers aren't powerful enough to look beyond the basics. For them, simple rules like "You can't Push on metals inside of someone's body" apply. It's much easier to tell someone that, as opposed to "People's bodies interfere with Allomancy, making it much harder to affect metals inside of them--so hard, in fact, that only some people you'll never meet can Push on metals inside of people's bodies."

It is a matter of degree of power. Vin, for reasons I'll explain eventually, has access to far more Allomantic power than regular people. The Lord Ruler is the same way, though for different reasons. And so, he can affect metals that are blocked by blood. Vin has to draw upon another, external source of power in order to produce the same effect, but it is possible for her.


Also, MB1 annotations Chapter Nine

Quote
The mists and Allomancy feeling right to Vin have something to do with the ending, where she draws upon the mists for an extra burst of power. I'm afraid I can't say more until we get to future books.

Between those two quotes, Brandon makes it seem like Vin drawing on the mist has more to do with her being particularly powerful in allomancy than anything else. The other thing that goes against your theory is that at the end of book one, when Vin is fighting the lord ruler, he pushes her earring away before she draws on the mists. Since this is supposedly her source of hemalurgical power, I think that it makes sense for the mists to be repelled by hemalurgy, and Vin somehow used a form of allomancy to "burn" the mists.

and your post in response...(well, not your first one, it's actually two posts down, but hey...)

Hum. Actually Andrew you are right.
Quote
That day, they had fueled her Allomancy, giving her a strength they shouldn't have had.
Also, my previous quote about using the mist instead of metals supports this idea.
This would explain several things actually; why mistborn are called mistborn, and why the Allomancers of old were stronger than modern-day. It would not explain why mist follows them....but the fact that mist is around them allows them to burn it more often.

Burning the mist is an allomantic power, not hemalurgical. We have evidence to say so, and I've seen nothing to prove otherwise.

Coma, I can see what you mean with your theory, but it just doesn't make sense to me. Why would preservation be inside of a person? It wouldn't have gone there on its own for any reason that I can think of, and Ruin wouldn't put it there if it prevented Ruin from gaining complete power. If you could explain why, it might help me. Personally, I think that preservation is probably still out there somewhere.
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Comatose

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #182 on: July 14, 2008, 12:43:38 AM »
Ok this thought is something I've been thinking about since the Gemmel thread popped up, I think it's on page 4 or 5 of the Brandon Boards.

Gemmel knew about Feruchemists, when Kelsier is remembering his training he quotes Gemmel saying something about how he can't change his WEIGHT because he's an Allomancer, not a NORTHERN MYSTIC.  Gemmel seems to be involved in the resistance in some way, he probably knew Sazed, and this led to Kelsier's escape, as said before, Gemmel was also crazy, does this mean he heard voices?

What I'm trying to get at is perhaps Ruin and/or Preservation manipulations may be going way back: giving Kelsier the knowledge he needs to train Vin, and succeed in his quest, in order to give Vin an opportunity to do, what she did at the end of book 2, and or whatever else these dieties have planned for her.

And Andrew, what I'm trying to say with all this is if Ruin was trapped, I think Preservation was trapped as well.  Since humans are of Ruin, I was thinking that maybe Ruin trapped PReservation in the body of human, and Preservation has been passed through the generations.  Sorry, it's kind of complicated.  Ruin was imprisoned by his opposite: the power of creation, and since there are only TWO powers, it's safe to assume that it was Preservation who trapped him there, but I was thinking that Ruin and PReservation trapped EACHOTHER, and that the human, a chaotic entity who is of Ruin, would be a good PRison for Preservation.  I originally thought the mists, but they are of both Ruin and PReservation, so, ya.  I'm not sure if that's very clear, but I hope it helps.
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Miyabi

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #183 on: July 14, 2008, 02:48:11 AM »
This is really tangential to current conversations, but it has to do with the thread.

I was thinking earlier and thought that it would be a possibility for this to be what Ruin and Preservation are.

Preservation - The power at the well.  By taking it, you preserve life and create new life.  It is your job to make the world a better place, but better is perspective obviously.

Ruin - Ruin is released when someone gives up the power of preservation (i.e.  They just don't want to have to deal with all of the power and responsibilities.)   Or they are just mislead, as was Vin.  By giving up the power of preservation you release the power of Ruin. 

Physical embodiments - Preservation gets its when someone uses the power, that person becomes it's vassal.  Ruin, it has to take a body through some means after it is released.

:/

I could dig up SOME evidence, but not a whole lot and most of it is very volatile as far as supporting the theory goes.
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Comatose

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #184 on: July 14, 2008, 05:28:44 AM »
It has merit, and I like it, but I also think that Ruin and Preservation are independant of good and evil, and too much of either is bad: I think creation lies in the balance between the two: The ability to change, the chaos that is life, but not utter Ruin and destruction, with some stability mixed in: balance.
I'm also against the theory that preservation is in the well, but that's just me.

I just thought of something else: the Lord Ruler pretty much embodied preservation right?  He's also a lot different from the angry emotional packman he started out as, sure living a thousand years does mature someone, but I don't think Rashek, even superpowered, would do some of the things the lord ruler did, so I'm beginning to wonder if you guys aren't right, what if Preservation was in the lord ruler...
And it jumped to Vin when she PIERCED his HEART with a SPEAR!  Vin is a Hemalurgist right, so Preservation travelled from the lord ruler, up the spear, piercing his heart, into Vin, the waiting Hemalurgist!  But Vin's earring, put there by RUIN who was controlling her mother, limited Preservation influence, that combined with the chaos without the lord ruler gave Ruin his power, now he's hunting feruchemist, because Preservation is supposed to be in a feruchemist: Rashek, but it's now inside Vin through her accidental haphhazard Hemalurgic Ritual!
Crazier and crazier.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2008, 05:37:02 AM by Comatose »
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Reaves

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #185 on: July 14, 2008, 10:22:37 AM »
Ouch, i feel like i just got smacked upside the head whithout even being there, lol.  :'(
although my first post was actually a response to something comatose said, i'll continue this discussion in the hemalurgy thread when i get back from work in a couple hours.
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Andrew the Great

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #186 on: July 14, 2008, 05:01:37 PM »
I'm sorry, but this is really weird. Ruin and Preservation = GODS. Basically. Why do we think that they need bodies? They are conscious entities, forces...wouldn't putting themselves into a physical body just limit them? Ruin doesn't need to take a body. Preservation could theoretically be trapped...or it could be out there stopping ruin from total power like the prologue suggests...
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Miyabi

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #187 on: July 14, 2008, 06:33:38 PM »
I'm sorry, but this is really weird. Ruin and Preservation = GODS. Basically. Why do we think that they need bodies? They are conscious entities, forces...wouldn't putting themselves into a physical body just limit them? Ruin doesn't need to take a body. Preservation could theoretically be trapped...or it could be out there stopping ruin from total power like the prologue suggests...
It was simply a thought.  I mean, if you know anything about plain theory, then they would have to directly become part of this plain in order to directly affect it.
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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #188 on: July 14, 2008, 06:42:07 PM »
But to have total power, Ruin needs something to be found and brought to him.

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #189 on: July 14, 2008, 08:50:00 PM »
But to have total power, Ruin needs something to be found and brought to him.
Yeah, and my thought being that he needs a way to enter the physical realm, or attain a physical body.
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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #190 on: July 14, 2008, 09:50:59 PM »
Okay, so this is stealing from Final Empire Prime, but in that story, there were two forces, Sha (change through destruction) and Lum (change through growth). There was a quest involving a Lord Ruler character who was supposed to choose a path, and he did, and I'm not going to explain the story here, but come to the points: There was a battle between Sha and Lum, in the which Lum lost because the Lord Ruler character sided with Sha. Lum avoided complete destruction by planting a seed of itself within a person many hundreds of years into the future. Sha was bonded with the LR character, but controlled by him. This actually gave Sha more power to affect the world, and the influence of Lum was greatly weakened, since Lum was almost destroyed.

So...

What if Preservation WAS inside of Vin (as mentioned earlier) and TLR did touch and actually bond with Ruin, which is what kept it bound and limited because he left it in the well, and when he died and Vin freed it, it still needed a body to actually control the world, but since it's free now it would control the person it bonded with, instead of visa versa. And it wants to destroy what's left of Preservation, which is inside Vin, but can't until it gets a body.

Some kind of specific body, though. It couldn't just be anyone, otherwise it would have done so. Do the other inquisitors resist Ruin? or just Marsh? I think this theory has too many holes, but it's another possibility as to why Vin is so powerful.

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #191 on: July 14, 2008, 11:08:55 PM »
Okay, so this is stealing from Final Empire Prime, but in that story, there were two forces, Sha (change through destruction) and Lum (change through growth). There was a quest involving a Lord Ruler character who was supposed to choose a path, and he did, and I'm not going to explain the story here, but come to the points: There was a battle between Sha and Lum, in the which Lum lost because the Lord Ruler character sided with Sha. Lum avoided complete destruction by planting a seed of itself within a person many hundreds of years into the future. Sha was bonded with the LR character, but controlled by him. This actually gave Sha more power to affect the world, and the influence of Lum was greatly weakened, since Lum was almost destroyed.

So...

What if Preservation WAS inside of Vin (as mentioned earlier) and TLR did touch and actually bond with Ruin, which is what kept it bound and limited because he left it in the well, and when he died and Vin freed it, it still needed a body to actually control the world, but since it's free now it would control the person it bonded with, instead of visa versa. And it wants to destroy what's left of Preservation, which is inside Vin, but can't until it gets a body.

Some kind of specific body, though. It couldn't just be anyone, otherwise it would have done so. Do the other inquisitors resist Ruin? or just Marsh? I think this theory has too many holes, but it's another possibility as to why Vin is so powerful.
I like this, basically just because it is similar to my theory. HAHA.  I think this is what will happen.  I'm actually pretty sure this is what is going to happen.

EDIT: Especially considering Brandon did say that he used many of those ideas in the actually Mistborn series.
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Comatose

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #192 on: July 15, 2008, 01:35:13 AM »
I'm not saying they NEED bodies, I'm saying Preservation is TRAPPED inside of a body like Ruin was in teh well, but PReservation still has some influence, even from it's prison (like Ruin did, even before he was released: he had a considerable amount of influence: Change most things written not in metal, control inquisitors almost completeley, and of course, make the deepness come back, I'm guessing that even trapped, PReservation is far from powerless, and is still able to fight Ruin, if they were both FREE, there would be balance, and Ruin wouldn't have the extreme amount of power that he has now, which mean Preservation must be trapped.  Ruin needs to find the body PReservation is trapped in, and use it to destroy PReservation (which I'm not sure he can do) or channel it into the body of a thing he can have complete control over, thus controlling preservation as well (inquisitors).
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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #193 on: July 15, 2008, 02:50:58 AM »
What could Ruin need? Preservation, I think, is the mist that's protecting the world from Ruin, but what would Ruin need to take control?

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Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #194 on: July 15, 2008, 05:32:55 AM »
well, PReservation IS the only other super powerful god-like force out there, so I'm pretty sure it's Preservation who is opposing Ruin in some way, and I think what Ruin needs to take Control, is to control Preservation!  Or at least get PReservation out of the way, where he can't even use his powers even a little bit, or even kill him, if sucha thing is possible?
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