Author Topic: Ruin and Preservation  (Read 43154 times)

Shost

  • Level 4
  • *
  • Posts: 66
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2008, 07:26:57 PM »
...was the power holding the entity from touching the world freely, like a seal? (

it seems to me that the last sentence of kwann's journal thing said that alendi musn't release the power or it would "release the creature imprisoned there" not a direct quote but i think it was something along those lines. either way it implied that the power was the prison rather than the prisoner and that it is something of a seal.

Felastizairu

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 31
  • Fell Points: 0
  • Defies gravity, and therefore physics.
    • View Profile
Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2008, 06:08:55 AM »
I agree, there's definitely a light/dark and good/evil duality going on. But, like Miriel mentioned, the Lord Ruler is a force of Preservation to the extreme, so much that it stagnates the world. And technically, the Lord Ruler is evil, too, because of all his atrocities. That means even the paragon of Preservation, the Lord Ruler, can be evil.

Therefore, it can be reasonably presumed that good/evil is independent of Ruin and Preservation. Ruin/Preservation are forces, not ideals.

So rather than "good" completely winning out, there will have to be a balance struck at the end of MB3, to prevent another Lord Ruler from existing. Plus, doing something like that seems like the typical, cliche-breaking thing Brandon would do.

I wouldn't say the Lord Ruler is evil, per say.  Sure, that's the way he seemed, due to the extreme oppression of the skaa and whatnot, but if it's true that the thing in the well is as horrible as we currently believe, and he was keeping said thing at bay, he was doing everyone a big favor.  It seemed that it was a big burden on him, too.  I think that either Vin and company will have to find a way to re-seal the well spirit and keep it contained the way the Lord Ruler was doing, or perhaps eradicate it entirely. 

I would, however, agree that Ruin and Preservation are independent of good and evil.  Good and evil are arbitrary terms.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
~Thomas

Chaos

  • Administrator
  • Level 36
  • *****
  • Posts: 2170
  • Fell Points: 3
  • The Original Hero of Ages
    • View Profile
    • Eric Lake
Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2008, 07:16:13 PM »
Eureka! I have discovered the reference! Mists59 is absolutely correct to whatere the reference is. Thank you for that clue :D.

The alpha readers seem hesitant to tell where this reference is. I will mention it precisely. So, if you are a fan who doesn't want the third book ruined before it comes out, I suggest you stop reading this post (and for that matter, future posts that are based on this one). Don't say I didn't warn you.

Page 299, Well of Ascension. Second to last paragraph. Just like mists59 said, it's during the chat where OreSeur discusses religion with Vin.

Quote
"Of course not," OreSeur said. "We honor our Contract, even in religion. The stories say that you'll kill yourselves off. You're of Ruin, after all, while the kandra are of Preservation. You're... actually supposed to destroy the world, I believe. Using the koloss as pawns."

I would transcribe more, but I don't want to infringe on Brandon's and Tor's copyrights. Look it up for the full conversation.

This little discussion is so much more than a simple reference to Ruin and Preservation. Let's dissect!

1. Brandon capitalized Ruin and Preservation. That means it's important. We already know they are, but this can just be considered confirmation.
2. "You're of Ruin, after all" OreSeur says. This has some more meaningful implications. First, it means that kandra know of legends. This information just rolls off his tongue, nonchalantly, like it's obvious.

The next couple things go off of the kandra.

3. Earlier on the page, it says that the kandra have a separate religion away from the Lord Ruler's oppression. This is significant because...
4. ...It means that this is how Kelsier found the Eleventh Metal. If kandra are the only things separated from the Lord Ruler, then they would have to be the source of the legends that Kelsier found (see MB1 annotations for more details. Brandon states that he will reveal where Kelsier got these legends in the third book). The question must be asked, then, why the kandra would support Kelsier and tell him legends.

The kandra don't like the Lord Ruler. I've been taking notes on this Well of Ascension readthrough, and I have details supporting this theory.

Page 203 - OreSeur says that more Allomancers existed during the early days of the Final Empire. Mistborn can somehow "find" kandra, and the Lord Ruler was hunting them down with those Mistborn. OreSeur continues that his people created the Contract to stop that hunt.

Furthermore, this animosity is confirmed on Page 118, where Vin recalls that Kelsier said Renoux (OreSeur) had to keep away from Steel Inquisitors and the Lord Ruler.

This is crucial. Earlier in this topic, we came to the consensus that the Lord Ruler touched the Preservation power at the Well of Ascension. As OreSeur says, kandra are of Preservation, humans Ruin. The Lord Ruler, if he is Preservation, perhaps decided to keep the kandra because he and the kandra are both Preservation, but he didn't "create" the kandra. He does not have power over them explicitly. If he had dominance over them, he would not need Mistborn to hunt down the kandra.

Getting back to Kelsier and the kandra. On the aforementioned page 299 of revelation, it says that kandra religion says that they hope that their oppressors (humans) will perish, and they will be free from the Contract. However, they themselves cannot kill humans, because of the Contract. So, to me, it seems logical that if Kelsier was out to hire a kandra (for his plan in MB1) for express purpose of defeating the Lord Ruler, the kandra would be ecstatic to help him.

Going off of the Ruin/Preservation duality, the kandra must know the obvious fact that defeating the Lord Ruler will cause chaos. Well of Ascension shows this explicitly. Warlords are pining for control. People are using the koloss as pawns (not effectively, but still). They are destroying themselves, like OreSeur says.

They did not help Kelsier because they like Kelsier. They want to help Kelsier so the Lord Ruler, humanity's source of Preservation, would die, so humans would do what comes naturally to them. Cause war. Chaos. And well, Ruin. After the years of Ruin, all humanity would die, and the kandra would no longer need the Contract, because you can't serve a people who are dead.

I'm giddy that I'm the one to discover this. Like Kwaan :D.

There's one thing I haven't found. On the first page, Ookla links me here. There, other Alpha Readers say that the Ruin Entity's name is explicitly referenced in MB2. I've discovered the reference of Ruin and Preservation, but the Ruin Entity's name eludes me.

Suggestions, here? The best I can come up with is that Humanity is the Ruin Entity, or some weird crap like that. Or the Ruin Entity isn't mysterious, but a human. Something like that. Unless I'm missing something, which is entirely possible.

Either way, I feel very certain Kelsier got his legends from the kandra. That much is certain.

And when I'm done with Well of Ascension, I'm going to make another topic. This one about direct references to Steel Inquisitors, in a hope to get some information about Hemalurgy. But that's for another day.
www.17thshard.com - The Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite.

Oh SNAP, I'm an Allomancer.

Peter Ahlstrom

  • Administrator
  • Level 59
  • *
  • Posts: 4902
  • Fell Points: 2
  • Assistant to Mr. Sanderson
    • View Profile
Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2008, 07:59:10 PM »
Ruin is the name I was talking about. You don't need to say "entity" with it.
All Saiyuki fans should check out Dazzle! Emotionally wrenching action-adventure and quirky humor! (At least read chapter 6 and tell me if you're not hooked.) Volume 10 out now!

Chaos

  • Administrator
  • Level 36
  • *****
  • Posts: 2170
  • Fell Points: 3
  • The Original Hero of Ages
    • View Profile
    • Eric Lake
Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2008, 08:07:47 PM »
Oh. Silly me, trying to personify it. I guess it makes sense that the thing at the Well of Ascension would be something like that.
www.17thshard.com - The Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite.

Oh SNAP, I'm an Allomancer.

darxbane

  • Level 17
  • *
  • Posts: 839
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2008, 11:12:02 PM »
Good work on this Chaos!  Two points: First, I believe that Tensoon (who you are referring to as Oreseur) tells Vin that the Lord Ruler created both the Kandra and the Koloss.  This information is how Vin figures out how to control the Koloss the same way she controls Tensoon in the fight against Zane.  Secondly, just because Tensoon says that humans are of Ruin, doesn't make it true.  You are taking the point of view of a creature who's race has been oppressed and controlled by humans their entire existence.  Tensoon is not exactly objective on this subject.  I am not saying you are wrong, I am just considering another possibility.  I didn't think about Kelsier learning about the 11th metal from Oresuer, but that sounds like a strong theory.

Ooh, I just reread Ookla's post, and I am pretty sure he is saying that the Well Spirit's name is Ruin.  That would mean that the Mist Spirit is Preservation.  I am not shocked by this news, but it does put some questions to rest.
I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

Peter Ahlstrom

  • Administrator
  • Level 59
  • *
  • Posts: 4902
  • Fell Points: 2
  • Assistant to Mr. Sanderson
    • View Profile
Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2008, 12:16:37 AM »
Just to be clear, I'm not saying anything about who or what Preservation is.
All Saiyuki fans should check out Dazzle! Emotionally wrenching action-adventure and quirky humor! (At least read chapter 6 and tell me if you're not hooked.) Volume 10 out now!

Shost

  • Level 4
  • *
  • Posts: 66
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2008, 12:33:39 AM »
i have to agree with darxbane on this one that tensoon mentioning Ruin and Preservation and capitalizing them means that he's fully correct. i mean most people in mb1 (and maybe mb2 i don't remember) when referring to the lord ruler use Him just like any orthodox religion would refer to their deity. that doesn't neccessarily make him god. we know for a fact he was simply human. however, i don't doubt that the religion of the kandra (and hopefully TenSoon) will come up again in HoA.

Chaos

  • Administrator
  • Level 36
  • *****
  • Posts: 2170
  • Fell Points: 3
  • The Original Hero of Ages
    • View Profile
    • Eric Lake
Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2008, 02:46:11 PM »
You know, I actually... sort of forgot OreSeur was TenSoon. I have a habit, once I pass the halfway mark, to read very rapidly, and I tend to miss these details. Zane's a really good example. Before this second readthrough, I was certain that he was just some insane asshole. I didn't like him very much.

And I'm willing to believe that TenSoon's words are correct, that humans are of Ruin. This is primarily because of other stories, like ones where robots take over the world, that the robots always say humans are going to destroy themselves. It seems that all in MB2 there is chaos going on in the world, which seems like exactly what Ruin would want.

Now, like you said darxbane, just because TenSoon says humans are of Ruin doesn't make it true. Conversely, though, it certainly doesn't mean it's false. From a pure storytelling perspective, when you have Vin talking with TenSoon, she trying to learn something about the kandra, when you actually reveal something, you can't just go around in the third book and say the interesting tidbit is completely first.
www.17thshard.com - The Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite.

Oh SNAP, I'm an Allomancer.

darxbane

  • Level 17
  • *
  • Posts: 839
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2008, 06:55:51 PM »
If it was revealed by an omnipotent narrator, then I would agree, but Tensoon's bias must be take into the acount.  It is not a stretch to believe they have twisted the truth somewhat over the years.  Look at society in real life.  People have convinced themselves that killing innocent people is OK as long as it is in the act of killing "infidels".  In the 1600's, the Catholic church murdered thousands of people for "witchcraft".  Their crime?  In many cases, being midwives and herbalists, which people trusted more than affluent doctors.  There is a way to rationalize any action or belief.  Hope requires something to believe in and, for the Kandra, what is more hopeful than the death of their oppressors?  And to rationalize that?  Well their destructive and evil, so maybe they all deserve to die!   Look how surprised Tensoon is by Vin; she is different than any other human he has ever known, so much so that he risked his life (and his contract) to save her.   If he is willing to do this, than he must at least be questioning his beliefs.  If one human is good, than others can be too.   
I wanted to write something profound here, but I couldn't think of anything.

Chaos

  • Administrator
  • Level 36
  • *****
  • Posts: 2170
  • Fell Points: 3
  • The Original Hero of Ages
    • View Profile
    • Eric Lake
Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2008, 10:24:42 PM »
Point taken.

Now, I finished Well of Ascension. I discovered something interesting, one which leads me to believe that Preservation, ironically, can also have an effect upon people. Sazed, while fighting Marsh in the climax, had his rings punched into his skin. Almost immediately (two paragraphs), he heard a benevolent voice telling him those were rings, not coins.

Preservation, it seems, also can speak through people with metal in them, just as Ruin can.

www.17thshard.com - The Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite.

Oh SNAP, I'm an Allomancer.

Comatose

  • Level 19
  • *
  • Posts: 904
  • Fell Points: 1
  • A Shard of Adonalsium
    • View Profile
Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2008, 10:30:05 PM »
The way you said that ten soon was questioning his beliefs reminds me of Hrathen from Elantris, when at the end he is question ing his faith.

And I think that voice was just Sazed talking to himself, personally, but I could be wrong.
"Look, I'm just trying to change the world, okay?  I don't have time for a grudge match with every poser in a parka!"
- Dr. Horrible

"There's always another secret..."
- Kelsier

Chaos

  • Administrator
  • Level 36
  • *****
  • Posts: 2170
  • Fell Points: 3
  • The Original Hero of Ages
    • View Profile
    • Eric Lake
Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2008, 05:30:45 AM »
I doubt it. When we are having things like super manipulative, god-like forces at work, I find it hard to believe that strange voices aren't caused by either Preservation or Ruin. There's another instance of this, where Elend kills this koloss as he's leaving Jastes for the first time, where a voice tells him how to defeat the beast. This wouldn't be strange, but it says that "the voice didn't come from Tindwyl, or anything he'd ever heard before." Something like that. It just seems odd that it would come from nowhere.

Though I see where you are going. I went through all of WoA thinking Zane was just some insane madman. Now I realize Ruin was manipulating him all along.

Now, here's the time for radical theories. I'm under the impression that if Ruin has some sort of external mechanism to exist in, like the mist, then Preservation should have something similar.

I think, then, (with very little to no evidence to support this) that the Ashmounts and ash itself is Preservation. Somehow.

Discuss!
www.17thshard.com - The Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite.

Oh SNAP, I'm an Allomancer.

Comatose

  • Level 19
  • *
  • Posts: 904
  • Fell Points: 1
  • A Shard of Adonalsium
    • View Profile
Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2008, 08:05:38 PM »
Interesting theory, I was wondering how the ashmounts were going to play into things, I personally assumed that they were created whenb the lord ruler reshaped the earth.  The way I pictured it, He basically picked up the land where the well, was, and moved it to the center of the empire, and the asmounts were a result of this huge landmass being set down.  I'll have to reread that part about Elend.  Another thing I was wondering about, it do the mists only kill when they come during the day?  Because if it is, the maybe there's a day-night paralell between preservation and ruin.  Preservation-Night-Benevolent Mists, Ruin-Day-Killing Mists.  I'm not sure about it, it's just something that came to mind
"Look, I'm just trying to change the world, okay?  I don't have time for a grudge match with every poser in a parka!"
- Dr. Horrible

"There's always another secret..."
- Kelsier

Chaos

  • Administrator
  • Level 36
  • *****
  • Posts: 2170
  • Fell Points: 3
  • The Original Hero of Ages
    • View Profile
    • Eric Lake
Re: Ruin and Preservation
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2008, 06:06:57 AM »
Well, I don't think Brandon would put in the Ashmounts and give them names if they weren't important in some ways.

I like the Day/Night parallel thing... that's certainly an excellent addition to the theory.
www.17thshard.com - The Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite.

Oh SNAP, I'm an Allomancer.