Author Topic: torrent!  (Read 4411 times)

firstRainbowRose

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torrent!
« on: February 01, 2008, 10:32:20 PM »
I was bored yesterday so I decided to do a search for EUOL in utorrent, and to my surprise I found that you can actually now torrent Elantris.  Now, don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying you should in any way.  I just feel like to be able to be downloaded like that in our internet-central world it says something about how famous you are...
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Spriggan

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Re: torrent!
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2008, 01:17:29 AM »
TWG has a strict no-tolerance policy on talking about illegal file downloading, it's caused us problems in the past with companies that send us review materials and it's illegal which is the biggest reason, and any talk of the sort can lead to permanent banning no matter how long you've been a member of the forum.

I'm not going to lock the thread but if anyone crosses the line from talking about the ethics of file sharing into talking about they do it and how to do it (even though most people already know) this thread will be locked.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 01:20:52 AM by Spriggan »
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Bryant

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Re: torrent!
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2008, 01:46:17 AM »
File sharing is interesting. In some cases, it has pretty much MADE the artist in question famous. Dragonforce, for example, would have never gotten any real attention in the US without their stuff being available for download, and you see them now doing tours, part of Ozzfest, etc.

Naruto also got a huge head start on the US market because of file sharing. Merchandising, etc, has also taken way off for it.

But then, for every person that goes out and buys something that they liked after downloading it, there's two (or more) people who won't.

I'm not sure if there's some magic obscurity:file sharing conversion to sales ratio out there, but I would have to theorize that it at least marginally helps those who could use more publicity more than it hurts them.

I have no idea what the magic point is, though, where it starts hurting more than helping. And that's the problem - no one does. That makes it pretty difficult to really say whether file sharing is right or wrong.

I think EUOL has the right idea with Warbreaker. If there are freely available samples of that nature - An album, or book, or whatever - then I think it achieves largely the same good that filesharing does.

Edit: Just ran a search of my own, and all I got was a book on "Macromolecular Crystallography"

Whatever that is.


Spriggan

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Re: torrent!
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2008, 02:16:00 AM »
Since you brought up Naruto, which I don't think file sharing made popular--being on Cartoon Network did that, I thought I'd link to a few interviews with the US anime industry which file sharing/fansubs is killing the industry  and companies are closing down.

Funmation: http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/11935.html

Gonzo: http://www.icv2.com/articles/indepth/11795.html

From and old industry insider: http://www.icv2.com/articles/indepth/11817.html

The difference between these interviews is that the interviewees are quite up front that there's more then just File sharing hurting sales, and they're trying to actually reach an internet market (I never knew Apple limited how many TV shows a company could release in a month so they can't quickly distribute that way) but I think they're being honest about it.  Read the ADV one where they talk about costs involved and the time investment you can see why illegal downloads are hurting them.

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Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: torrent!
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2008, 05:30:03 AM »
The U.S. anime industry has been hurting bigtime in the last couple months. First Geneon went under, and now even ADV is having problems. For a long time the evidence for or against filesharing was ambiguous, but now it seems to be shifting to one side.
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Bryant

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Re: torrent!
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2008, 05:53:27 AM »
Since you brought up Naruto, which I don't think file sharing made popular--being on Cartoon Network did that, I thought I'd link to a few interviews with the US anime industry which file sharing/fansubs is killing the industry  and companies are closing down.

Funmation: http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/11935.html

Gonzo: http://www.icv2.com/articles/indepth/11795.html

From and old industry insider: http://www.icv2.com/articles/indepth/11817.html

The difference between these interviews is that the interviewees are quite up front that there's more then just File sharing hurting sales, and they're trying to actually reach an internet market (I never knew Apple limited how many TV shows a company could release in a month so they can't quickly distribute that way) but I think they're being honest about it.  Read the ADV one where they talk about costs involved and the time investment you can see why illegal downloads are hurting them.



Naruto was pretty big before it ever got licensed. I saw tons of people with the headbands, etc, at cons, and I know that it had a massive following on the internet. It had quite a bit of momentum going for it before it was ever played on CN.

The problem with those articles is that they only tell one side of the story. DVD sales are down, yes, but how different are the numbers when you take into account online sales, like the mentioned iTunes/Xbox Marketplace. The RIAA has been screaming music sales are down, but that's only if you take into account CD sales. When you factor in iTunes and all of the other online sales, it's about the same now as it was a decade ago, with some markets showing some growth, and others some loss.

I would like to see some hard numbers involving DVD sales, internet sales, and merchandising sales from several years ago, and from now. I'm not saying anime sales in general aren't down - because I don't have any problem believing that they are - just that I would like to see some real numbers involving all aspects of it, beyond simply DVD sales. I mean, if DVD sales are down 50%, but online sales have tripled to amount in the same number of episodes being sold, and merchandising has doubled...

Of course, I figure the profit margins on online sales are lower than that of physical ones, and 60000 DVD sales probably brings in more than 30000 DVD sales and 30000 online sales, but if these are about even, I don't think it's fair to claim the sales are really down.


Illegal downloading may very well be negatively effecting the industry - it wouldn't surprise me in the least - but I would just like to see some sales numbers before I sit back and say "Yeah, I agree. We need to get rid of the file sharers! "


Shuez

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Re: torrent!
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2008, 11:47:55 AM »
As a writer and musician, I follow the "do unto others..." rule. I want people to buy my books and music, but how could I expect such patronage if I hypocritically download media myself.

However, this does not mean that I am a steadfast anti-torrent zealot: I have had my own software indiscretions in times past.

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charity

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Re: torrent!
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2008, 05:21:03 PM »
I find an anti- stolen software policy for myself, can be very hard, not so much because I'm weak, cause I really push this and so does my husband, I use open office for that reason but we have family members who this bugs and they actually give me a hard time about it sometimes.

I've always thought of it this way, if it's illegal than I shouldn't be doing it. I can't imagine going to hell over a stolen movie, if I'm gonna pave my way there I'd rather do it on something a little more.... I don't know, lasting. ;)

Not saying that you all might feel it paves your way to hell, just my personal thought on the subject.

And I really had no idea what torrent was until spriggan replied, I'm still not sure I have a full grasp of it beyond it's illegally getting licensed stuff.

Bryant

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Re: torrent!
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2008, 06:40:48 PM »
Well, torrents themselves are not illegal. It refers to a peer to peer file sharing protocol. The torrent itself just is a listing of people with the file, and then you make the connections based on the torrent information.

It's mainly used for file sharing copyright material, but it also has legitimate uses. Blizzard distributes their World of Warcraft patches using BitTorrent, and many Linux distributions use torrents. You can use BitTorrent to download OpenOffice, even.

charity

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Re: torrent!
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2008, 07:45:43 PM »
hmm, interesting, I just ask my brother to do it.

put programs on my computer... i mean. (since I'm likely to do it wrong and download it three times or something)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 09:31:00 PM by charity »

skibocastle

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Re: torrent!
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2008, 09:04:15 PM »
I pretty much agree with Spriggan, what is the difference between downloading a book/movie illegally, or stealing one from a store?  But a lot of people who would never walk into a store and take something will download on the internet.  My stepson has in the past downloaded things and shared them with friends.  It took a long time for my husband and I to get him to understand the ramifications of his actions.  It seems that the internet has blurred the lines around some illegal actions by making things so easy  to obtain, and packaging them in a way that makes it seem okay.

Just my personal opinion, but any kinds of illegal downloads is the same as stealing from a store or someone's house.

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Re: torrent!
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2008, 10:52:39 PM »
Actually in a way I would have to argue it's worse than stealing a physical object because at least they're insured. I mean, when you illegally use someone's images, or download music, or whatever it is, you are in fact stealing it - in some ways to me it's a lot like plagiarising, I mean, you're denying their ownership of their own material by deciding that you will choose how it is distributed.

I guess I've got a lot more perspective of this personally now than I used to, because I'm studying as a Designer and Illustrator and it absolutely scares the nuts out of my tree.

Everything I do is just basically manifesting the ideas in my head, and in reality they may be words on a page, or  compositions of form and colour. It's easy for an idea to be taken from you, and when copy-works are out there where someone has taken liberty with the fruit of your mind it really makes it thsat much harder for people to recognise you as its creator. I guess in my case I'm even more afraid of the idea of not being identified as the source of a design or idea than I am about any other aspect of this though.

The whole thing's still a rather big mess of nasty though.

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Spriggan

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Re: torrent!
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2008, 12:09:00 AM »
The biggest problem with illegal downloads is the culture of freedom that purveys in the Net.  Basically people expect, or even demand, all content for free thus they think they're entitled to download movies, music and books for free.  This train of thought is encouraged by the fact they don't have to walk into a store to steal something, there's no risk.

As for Bryant's question about Anime, well if it wasn't hurting them why would one of the most popular US anime companies--Genon who has Cowboy Beebob--close shop because no one is buying DVDs or digital versions?  If people were buying legal digital copies, which would offset the drop in DVD sales, this wouldn't have happened.  And as Ookla said ADV (which has a wide digital distribution reach for an anime company) havening lost of problems too?  As both the articles stated Anime in the US is becoming more and more popular yet DVD sales aren't just stagnate, aren't just low like the rest of the DVD industry they're down 50% compared to 20% for other DVDs?   

The worst thing about this discussion is you seam to be defending people stealing content, tens of thousands of dollars go into make a single episode and there are lots of jobs at stake, do you honestly want no more Anime over here in the US as well as less stuff made in Japan?  Do you honestly see nothing wrong with this (even if the numbers weren't as staggering as they were)?  You called it illegal yourself yet seam to have no problem with it.
Screw it, I'm buying crayons and paper. I can imagineer my own adventures! Wheeee!

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Bryant

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Re: torrent!
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2008, 03:01:02 AM »
The biggest problem with illegal downloads is the culture of freedom that purveys in the Net.  Basically people expect, or even demand, all content for free thus they think they're entitled to download movies, music and books for free.  This train of thought is encouraged by the fact they don't have to walk into a store to steal something, there's no risk.

As for Bryant's question about Anime, well if it wasn't hurting them why would one of the most popular US anime companies--Genon who has Cowboy Beebob--close shop because no one is buying DVDs or digital versions?  If people were buying legal digital copies, which would offset the drop in DVD sales, this wouldn't have happened.  And as Ookla said ADV (which has a wide digital distribution reach for an anime company) havening lost of problems too?  As both the articles stated Anime in the US is becoming more and more popular yet DVD sales aren't just stagnate, aren't just low like the rest of the DVD industry they're down 50% compared to 20% for other DVDs?   

The worst thing about this discussion is you seam to be defending people stealing content, tens of thousands of dollars go into make a single episode and there are lots of jobs at stake, do you honestly want no more Anime over here in the US as well as less stuff made in Japan?  Do you honestly see nothing wrong with this (even if the numbers weren't as staggering as they were)?  You called it illegal yourself yet seam to have no problem with it.
I would appreciate it if you wouldn't jump to conclusions and put words in my mouth. I stated fairly clearly in my first post in this thread that I am neither for nor against file sharing, as there are some stories out there that point to file sharing having a positive impact.


Tech N9ne, a rapper from the midwest, is fairly well known for his decision to release his album Absolute Power on the internet. Sales for this album are by far the highest out of any of his work, even including albums which have multiple tracks featured in motion pictures, etc. Yet, quite obviously, people will aways choose to take something for free, when faced with the choice of getting it for free vs. having to pay for it. One aspect is positive, and the other is negative.

And my question wasn't about DVD sales, but rather overall sales. I realize their DVD sales are going down. The thing is, that doesn't tell the whole story. Even anime dropping a larger percentage than regular movies makes quite a bit of sense, concerning the digital medium, for several reasons. One is the audience: Anime fans are largely a geeky population my nature. The average anime fan is far more likely to be interested in computers, etc, which places them in the market that digital download services cater to. You then also have to consider the fact that anime DVDs cost significantly more than, say, an equal number of TV series episodes. I recently bought the 3rd Tenchi Muyo OAV. It cost me $35, for 7 episodes and 300 minutes of play time. Comparatively, House Season 1, 22 episodes and 970 minutes, only cost me $40. More than three times the length, and only 5 dollars more in price. Prices on the online stores are not quite as disparate, from my understanding.

Say I release a book. It is originally sold in hardcover format. Later, a trade paperback version is released. If I put out an article saying that hardcover sales have plummeted, I would probably be telling the truth. But that doesn't mean that filesharing caused it.

As for ADV's digital distribution, there are quite a few issues with it. $5 per episode is quite a price, with the average anime episode being ~20 minutes long. For an hour's worth of entertainment, that's $15! I can grab a regular TV show off of iTunes for $2. It also only works on Windows because of the DRM system, which eliminates Mac and Linux users from the equation. Again, while these are much smaller pieces of the market than windows users, due to the nature of the type of person who is a fan of anime, they are hardly market shares that you wish to ignore. By requiring Windows, they are definitely losing sales.

I also disagree with the downloading = stealing sentiment. You have to realize that a significant portion of those who download things off the internet are teenagers, etc, with no jobs, and very little disposable income. Some 15 year old who's only source of income is a weekly allowance might have downloaded 17,000 MP3s, 600 movies, and 74 anime series, but it is quite obvious he never would have been able to buy all of that. You can't lose sales that you never had. Am I saying that it's fair, or even right that this kid has these, when he didn't pay for them? Far from it - I buy my things, and so should he. But the RIAA in particular has left a bad taste in my mouth on this subject, where they make wild claims saying that a single person who has thousands of MP3s has cost the industry hundreds of thousands of dollars - quite obviously, these people would not have actually bought all of this music, even if it was not available for download.


By no means am I saying that file sharing is correct, nor defending file sharers. I would agree, even, that for products that are already popular, it is a bad thing. However, there is proof out there that it can help people gain recognition and popularity. That, coupled with the ridiculous strong arm tactics of several organizations, such as the RIAA (Who has been lobbying for the penalty limit to be increased - they're saying that every single shared MP3 file is $150,000 in damagers. More than a million dollars for a shared CD!) makes me believe that the issue is hardly black and white. There are multiple sides to every story, and to make an informed decision, you need to know all of the sides. And, at this time, I do not know all of the sides, so I can not comfortably make a judgment one way or another. This does not mean that I am for, or defending, filesharers. All it means is that I'm not ready to roast them on a spit, either.

Edit: I didn't even consider economic issues, either. With the US likely in a recession, the higher priced luxuries are going to go away faster. I don't believe this is a major contributor to lost sales, but it could be one of many minor ones. Thousands of untreated small cuts will bleed you to death just as surely as several big ones.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2008, 03:03:38 AM by Bryant »

firstRainbowRose

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Re: torrent!
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2008, 04:15:37 AM »
I'd like to point out something that a lot of musical artist are considering.  With the last Radio Head album (I think that was the band) they offered their cd for download, and you got to chose the price you paid for the album.  So if you said "Hey, I don't want to pay a penny for this thing" you could put in 0 into the "what would you like to pay" option and not pay anything.  I guess they had quite a few sales that way, and a lot of other bands are considering doing it as well.  I guess my point behind that is not all of the artist feel that paying nothing is really bad -- otherwise, they would have programmed into the purchase a minimum amount.

I've tried to find the ratios (this % pay nothing, this % paid 1-5, this % paid 5-10 type ting) but I haven't been able to.  I'm willing to bet though that most of the download were lower than what you would usually pay through itunes (or any other pay-for-download program) or buying the physical cd (if they paid anything.)

Just a bit of food for thought.
"The custom of royalty in referring to oneself is to naturally employ the royal 'we'.  We are very happy, we are very sad, we are bored and suffer from ennui.  For a royal prince there's no such word as 'me', It's always 'we'.  So rightfully I should be two or three, don't you agree?"