Author Topic: column: EUOLogy: On Pullman and Censorship  (Read 12699 times)

Nessa

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column: EUOLogy: On Pullman and Censorship
« on: November 17, 2007, 04:38:45 PM »
read it here: http://www.timewastersguide.com/article/1612/EUOLogy-On-Pullman-and-Censorship

I wanted to say that I agree with EUOL. Many of my LDS women friends are concerned about this and when I try to explain about censorship and making a decision for themselves they get all defensive. It's very frustrating. At the very least, as a parent, I will watch this movie on my own because my children's friends will be seeing this, which will make interest in it unavoidable (even if I were to keep them from seeing it, but I will delay that decision until I see it for myself).

As a parent it's irresponsible to keep yourself uninformed, because if your child's friend sees it, your child will learn about it, and at the very least--if you don't like the message it portrays, and this goes for any movie--you must be prepared for discussion, and you can't discuss if you don't know the truth about it.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 04:55:50 PM by Nessa »
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Re: column: EUOLogy: On Pullman and Censorship
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2007, 05:27:02 PM »
I've got to say, that's a very interesting article. I myself come from a background that's actually pretty similar to Pullman's from what I read there. (and in the other articles linked) And I wouldn't have thought that such ideas could still offend people in such a huge way. I mean, I knew that there were puritans and some singular voices, but I thought those kept themselves to their farming cities where there aren't any cinemas to begin with. More and more I'm getting to realize that there's still whole countries reacting in such a strong way, and that scares me a little.

I'd like to thank EUOL for proving that there are reasonable voices on the other side of the fence as well. Most I've seen up to now was just rabble-rousing, and after a while that makes it pretty easy to feel contempt for some people that might not deserve it. It's easy to feel superior if your opponent proves himself to be stupid again and again, and the whole discussion becomes a meaningless conflict of egos, nothing more besides that.

Making informed decisions will always be important. I can live with other people who decide to believe in something different than I do, but if they just shut themselves off and don't listen to anything that might be in conflict with their believes, I really have a hard time taking them seriously.

I myself am very happy that the Pullman books are making the jump to the big screen and I really didn't see all that much religiously controversial material inside them to begin with. The Lucifer comics recently vilified god a lot more than anything else I've ever seen, and I haven't much controversy coming from those. His Dark Materials is tame in comparison to that. Anyway, I can't wait for some armoured bear action!
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 05:29:14 PM by FTH »

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Re: column: EUOLogy: On Pullman and Censorship
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2007, 03:03:15 PM »
Less about the article,

but I find it funny that atheists think that so many theists are closed-minded bigots, theists think that so many atheists are intentionally pernicious hedonists.

It's like the world is entirely populated by Nazis and the sort of person who attends gay orgies.

Whereas I think most people tend to do what they genuinely think is right (yes, even Michael Moore and George Bush), even if I disagree with what they want to accomplish

I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone here, incidentally. If you get defensive, it's because you chose to take offense. I did *not* say anyone here actually subscribed to those views.

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Re: column: EUOLogy: On Pullman and Censorship
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2007, 03:34:58 PM »
It makes sense. Aggressive voices are the strongest after all. Nobody really wants to hear about what the people in the middle think. Powerful ideas are the things that draw attention and that are the most interesting to discuss, be they true or not. Finding compromises has never been humanity's strong point...

Oh, and as a heads up: I don't think you intended it like that, but equating being a nazi and being somebody who attends gay orgies in the same sentence kind of rubs me the wrong way. I'm not saying that I think you believe those things are the same, it's just a heads up for future write-ups. It's easy to see what you intended, but it's even easier to get the wrong idea.


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Re: column: EUOLogy: On Pullman and Censorship
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2007, 04:40:54 PM »
oh, i wasn't equating them. I was drawing a stereotype out of each of the two views.

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Re: column: EUOLogy: On Pullman and Censorship
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2007, 05:27:17 PM »
I have to say first off that I really dislike Philip Pullman's works and I think every interview I've read with him has annoyed me a lot.  I've read The Golden Compass and I thought it was completely inappropriate for children.  I guess that's why this email campaign doesn't bother me.  A lot of people will see the ads and think "kid movie" when, if it is anything like the book, it shouldn't be for kids at all.  If these emails keep them from taking their kids to this movie then all to the good.

That said, I don't think the books should be banned from libraries or schools, but parents and teachers should be aware of the content of these books before recommending them to children.  In my local bookstore, these books are shelved with the adult sf&f, and I personally think that's where they belong.  Brandon said he didn't think there was any mature content in them, but I have to disagree.  I thought there was content that was inappropriate for children, and I'm glad these aren't shelved with the children's books at my bookstore.

My mother is a librarian at an elementary school.  She has several books (most of them Newberry winners) that she feels are inappropriate for children (especially the younger grades), but she still wants to have them available in her library.  She keeps these books off the shelves.  That way, if someone asks for them, the child can check them out, but she makes them aware of content concerns.  A child isn't going to just be browsing, pick the book off the shelf, and end up with a lot more than he bargained for.  And my mom isn't going to end up with irate parents wondering why she let their child check out the book without knowing what was in it.  I don't know if this is the best system, but it has worked pretty well for her so far.

This is kind of a rambling reply.  I think lots of parents let their children read books and watch movies without any awareness of the content.  This email campaign will hopefully at least make parents aware that there are concerns with content in these works.  I think that's a good thing so that parents aren't going in blind.
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Re: column: EUOLogy: On Pullman and Censorship
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2007, 07:18:08 PM »
So, this is exactly what EUOL is saying, I think.

You're telling me there's inappropriate content, but EUOL says there isn't. Well, whose word carries more weight?

Perhaps you could give an example instead of simply saying "it has inappropriate material." Like game and movie ratings do. Not giving me examples makes me think your statement doesn't have a lot behind it.

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Re: column: EUOLogy: On Pullman and Censorship
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2007, 07:50:36 PM »
I would actually say that there's some content that you could easily flag as "inappropriate" in Pullman's novels. There's philosophy and things in there that are pretty complicated and the fights can get quite cruel. Then there's the thing with the knife and the bleeding fingers... I mean...  even I was pretty grossed out when I read that stuff.

But I would at the same time say that we shouldn't underestimate children. They understand a lot more than most of us adults would give them credit for and they're quite able to deal with the harsh reality that so many parents try to "protect" them from.

As a ten year old, I loved playing Duke Nukem. It was a lot of fun, but rated R. I knew that what I saw in the game wasn't real and that it was just like the movies on TV, which also weren't real. There wasn't ever any actual problem with me not understanding the boundaries between fiction and reality. When there are children who get influenced by fiction in such a strong way, I don't think the movies should be to blame, it's something their parents need to teach them.

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Re: column: EUOLogy: On Pullman and Censorship
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2007, 04:29:33 AM »
I am with EUOL on most of his points, but I have to say that there is definitely some material in this series that I can see parents objecting to. I don't remember as much in the first book, but in the later books, there are some pretty rough scenes.
SPOILERS:
For example, one of the last fights in the third book involves two characters killing one of the main antagonists by strangling him, and then repeatedly smashing him in the head with a rock. There are also some torture scenes throughout the series which, although they aren't that graphic, make it very clear that the person is in pain. The most disturbing thing in the series for me was when one of the main characters was kidnapped and repeatedly given tranquilizers to keep her asleep.
END SPOILERS

Considering the length of the series, I wouldn't say that there is a lot of violence, but Pullman handles it realistically when it does occur. It's not usually graphic, but it's definitely not stylized either.
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Re: column: EUOLogy: On Pullman and Censorship
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2007, 07:12:22 AM »
I feel like ranting tonight.

I think Pullman is inapropriate for most children. Right now I've been working on a literacy curriculum for teaching meaning/content to children. One challenge we've had is there is a lot of diversity in what childen understand. So in trying to select appropriate works becomes  a challenge because there isn't a lowest-common denominator. So we go for the middle usually.

I do agree that parents ought to be informed about the content of a book before allowing a child to read it. However, I'm surprised with how many parents are competely clueless as to how much their child really understands (I'd estimate about a third of the parents in a given class). This is more often the case with low-performing cildren as opposed to average or above-average children (a typical class will have 3 below average children for every 1 above average children). It's particularly with parents who were above-average themselves but have a child that is below-average.

Course, measuring a child's understanding is problematic and usually requires repeated individualized testing. However, it also gets complicated in that adults bring massive bias to the testing, usually building off of pre-concieved notions of whether the child with score well or not. There's a lot of high-order thinking that has to be tested when analyzing a child's understanding of meaning, however many adults either think low-level thinking skills are actually higher-order skills or do the opposite (rater reliability becomes crucial here).

I guess I'm for censorship in an ideal sense. More like selective censorship, though I doubt it could actually happen. In an ideal world--parents, teacher, librarians, and school administators would get the right books to the right kids and keep out the wrong books from the wrong kids. However, that requires a lot of judgement and like many contemporaries, I find little faith in the judgements of humankind.

My pragmatic side says--censorship happens. Sometimes it is justified and other times it is cruel. But it happens and will continue to happen no matter what administators or politicians do. In public schools we've already censored out swear words, verbal abuse, negative comments, harsh criticism, home economics, prayers, the pledge of allegience, and most fine art forms. (Well, maybe not the swear words)

The sociologist part of me tends to think everytime I hear a writer whine about censorship, it's really a plea for more power. They want the power to decide what people read, and censequently think. It's in their best interest for people to be readers and even more so to be their readers. For a writer, to be censored is probably a humiliating and frustrating thing. It's a big slap in the face to their ideas. Course, if you say something that's going to offend a large portion of the culture to which you belong (like offend the 90% of U.S. citizens that follow a religion, or refere to everyone that doesn't live in a large city as a hick) then you deserve to be censored if purely for being a social idiot. A good writer should have enough social sense to tactfully present their ideas to the masses without getting mobbed or starting a riot. Writers are free to express themselves in this country and free to take responsibility for what they express without the government getting involved. The more they complain about mistreatment the sooner the priveledge of self-expression will be taken away.
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Re: column: EUOLogy: On Pullman and Censorship
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2007, 07:47:48 AM »
I was with you all the way there until you said "priveledge of self-expression" in the end. I can see that not all children might be smart enough to understand what they're doing and that not all parents might understand their children well enough. I understand that things some things aren't appropriate for everybody, but saying that somebody who offends people "deserves" censorship is just wrong. The difference between the things we censor at public schools and between the books should be obvious. Nobody forces anybody to read books. In public schools, everybody is forced to be confronted with these things, I say there's a huge difference.

If people are too stupid not to understand that something they or they children read might prove to be offensive, then how on earth is that the authors fault? There are millions of people and a million of ways to offend. Maybe having one of your characters die of cancer offends somebody who's aunt died of it, maybe if you have a black dog in it as a talking animal companion you'll offend somebody who's kid has been bitten to death by a similar (but not talking) black dog.

There's no way to know, and as silly as this might sound to you: Maybe Pullman wasn't trying to offend at all. You can be openly against religion without trying to offend anybody or "stir the pot", as strange as that may seem, just as you can be openly for religion without being a religious fanatics. If we start censoring the voices that go against religion, we might as well go and start censoring the bible for the same reason, for expressing an opinion. (Though I think that's a bad example, because IIRC that's already been done, texts left out and such... anyway, I hope the idea is clear at least.)

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Re: column: EUOLogy: On Pullman and Censorship
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2007, 08:44:09 AM »
Quote
The sociologist part of me tends to think everytime I hear a writer whine about censorship, it's really a plea for more power. They want the power to decide what people read, and censequently think.
That works more in the favor of the censor. Writers can only make their ideas available. People decide for themselves whether or not they are going to even read those ideas, and then they have the chance to decide what they think. The only way they can decide what people read is if they have interesting ideas. Censors, on the other hand, directly control what people can and can't read/think.

Quote
Course, if you say something that's going to offend a large portion of the culture to which you belong (like offend the 90% of U.S. citizens that follow a religion, or refere to everyone that doesn't live in a large city as a hick) then you deserve to be censored if purely for being a social idiot.
If they were social idiots, then they wouldn't have to be censored. Few people, if anyone, would read their books, and they would naturally stop being published. If people do read their books, then they had a point that people thought was worth considering. Even if most people buy the book to denounce it, it still means that people were interested in the issue.
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Re: column: EUOLogy: On Pullman and Censorship
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2007, 03:06:13 PM »
I'm I the only one here that feels that unless it's don't by the Government it's not censorship?

I don't think what these people are doing to Pullman is censorship in the least.  If I tell someone not to watch X or read Y because of a reason Z is that censorship (even though it's only a recommendation)?  If a pareant doesn't want his kid to read X or watch Y is that censorship?  If a community decides that something is below their standards and don't want it is that censorship?

I think the art community it too willing to throw that word around to prevent any discussion on their works not being appropriate for some people or in poor taste.
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Re: column: EUOLogy: On Pullman and Censorship
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2007, 03:49:42 PM »
I still feel that if you offend enough people you deserve censorship. Even if its just a small group they have the right to censor where they can and to protest. Writers should have to stand by what they write. If someone reads something that they find offensive, accidentally or intentionally, then they have the right to complain and protest and call for it to be censored. The voice who whines the loudest will usually win.

I know Pullman wasn't trying to be offensive with his books. I don't care what his intentions were. I care about the results. So people want his books to be censored even though he meant no harm. That's a risk every author takes in writing words down. Pullman will be okay if enough people agree with him. If not enough people agree with him then I'm okay with him being censored. I like that the issue gets brought up even though in many areas it detracts from more pressing concerns.

As for censorship and power--they do go hand in hand. Our public schools are one big thought police on many levels. To be honest it keeps our society from falling into chaos. As individuals we give power to people to act as our censors. There is no way any one individual could filter through all the ideas out there and make informed decisions. I garantee that a lot of people who vote don't do so on informed decisions, but they do elect people to make decisions for them.

Authors ought to be aware that there are certain powers they shouldn't offend or they will be censored. In the U.S. these powers aren't usually government run (though the government does censor some things). But if a group wants to censor a book in a community or school district--they should be allowed to if the group has enough public support. I don't think people in other parts of the country should be telling them what to do in their communities.

I guess I just have some faith still that the system will work itself out. I work with a lot of people (kids, adults, etc.) who's lives would have been a lot better off had they never gotten certain ideas into their heads. Unfortunately, because of a lack of a just censoring system, they have really messed up lives.

So I don't see a reason for coddling writers. They can say what they like in this country, but they can get censored by many factors--not getting published, living in the wrong place, no advertisement, or just ticking off the wrong group. It's risk they took when they started writing. It may hurt to be censored, but if it happens it happens.

Quote
If they were social idiots, then they wouldn't have to be censored. Few people, if anyone, would read their books, and they would naturally stop being published. If people do read their books, then they had a point that people thought was worth considering. Even if most people buy the book to denounce it, it still means that people were interested in the issue.

Believe it or not, most authors write stuff that doesn't offend people. They are socially intelligent enough to know what to write get, how to sell what they write, and still not offend people. Controversy has little to do with writing. It's mostly the resort of the desperate writers who aren't good enough to get published any other way.
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Re: column: EUOLogy: On Pullman and Censorship
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2007, 05:39:55 PM »
Quote
Am I the only one here that feels that unless it's done by the Government it's not censorship?

Hear hear.  To expand on Spriggan's point (Spriggan, forgive me if I have misunderstood you)  Unless the threat of violence is used to force people not to read/see/hear a given work of art, it ain't censorship.  It's simply people expressing their opinions opposing the work.  Which is, of course, them exercising exactly the same rights of free speech the person who created the offending work exercised to begin with.

Artists who cry "censorship" when their work is opposed through speech or other peaceful means are, essentially, insisting that they have a right to free speech but those who disagree with them don't. (The laughable antics of the Dixie Chicks complaining about the massive drop in their sales after their anti-Bush remarks come to mind.)

Now, to Brandon's point, I agree and think it's rather foolish to oppose ideas you don't agree with through the kind of head-in-the-sand tactics the people who sent him that email are using.  Insisting that a movie should be boycotted because the ideas contained therein don't agree with yours is equivalent to sticking your fingers in your ears and humming.  If your ideas are really so weak that they can't survive single combat in the arena of discussion and debate, your betting on the wrong dog.

Now, here's a question for y'all.  I can't quite put my finger on the difference between saying you shouldn't take your kids to see "The Golden Compass" and saying you shouldn't take your kids to see "SAW4" or "Debbie Does Dallas."  All my reasons have to do with my moral compass, religious beliefs, etc...which not everyone shares.  Yet there are secular laws in place to prevent me from taking my kids to those shows. Is the government preventing certain segments of the population, kids, from seeing certain shows censorship?   Is it good?  Why?  Why not?
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