Author Topic: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows ***Spoilers***  (Read 25036 times)

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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows ***Spoilers***
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2007, 01:41:21 PM »
[hide]I found the Hallows integral to the character of both Harry and Dumbledore. "Hallows before Horcurxes" or "Horcruxes before Hallows." Even at the end Dumbledore was choosing the former. Harry chose the latter specifically by dropping the stone. That, there, is the point of the entire series, in a way. I can't see how that could really have been done away.

I too had an issue with the wand not being unbeatable. However, its owner defeated four times in the narrative and flashback of the series. 1) Dumbledore. The wand decided he was beaten before he's killed, though I'm not sure how. that's the point I worry about. However, it doesn't matter, because he doesn't duel with it. He hides Harry instead and the death eaters have him trapped without magic. No problem being unbeatable there. 2) Draco. Draco was more or less standing around. Something he does a lot in the series. He's a crappy wizard at best. He's caught unawares and not dueling. Same and snatching it while he sleeps, imo. 3) Voldemort. Voldemort isn't its master, thus he isn't unbeatable with it. Rowlings took great pains to explain that. Complaining about that now doesn't make sense.  4) Gangrenous or whatever Dumbledore's old "friend" was called. No one saw the duel, so who knows what happened. Maybe he surrendered. I dunno. This one is slightly more problematic for me than how Draco "defeated" Dumbledore.

On another note, why *shouldn't* Mrs. Weasely be an expert duelist? She's pretty handy with the wand at most other things. Plus it looked better that way.
The other problem, of everyone standing around watching the duel. Well, do you have a problem with the Stormtroopers watch Vader fight Obi-Wan? Plus Harry told the good guys to stand down. The bad guys couldn't hurt them, that was also explained in the text. On the whole, most "complaints" are tightly explained in the book.

On yet another note, the hole I have a hard time reconciling. How the heck does Neville have the Sword of Gryffendor? Yeah, yeah, he had the sorting hat, like Harry did in #2, but uhm... it was given back tot he Goblins. By both goblin and wizard definition, Hogwarts was no longer the home of the sword. So... the wizards can give it back and then steal it anytime they wanted? uh uh. Doesn't make sense to me. Of course, Nagini had to be killed by *something* special. Normal killing wouldn't work since he's a Horcrux, so that's why (narratively) he needed it, but it doesn't explain how he got it.

I was right about Snape. way back after book 6 most of you mocked me for pointing out that Snape was still trying to teach Harry as he fled the scene, and for insisting that he was on Dumbledores side. You people were all WRONG! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!

Deathcount of the good guys: Hedwig (saddest for me), Mad Eye, Scrimgeour (I guess he was a good guy, he was just a major retard at being a good guy), Dobby, Fred, Tonks, Lupin, Snape, Harry (sorta).
Official named bad guy deaths: Bellatrix, Crabbe (or was it Goyle?), Voldemort, wormtail. I can't remember anyoen else. Looks like the bad guys were winning pretty good there.[/hide]

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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows ***Spoilers***
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2007, 02:26:35 PM »
Quote
The "19 years later" did feel very tacked on...
I agree, it felt like an afterthought. Personally, I think it was JKR's way of making sure everyone knew she was definitely retiring Harry as a hero. After all, what is more boring to teenagers than...PARENTS! She has said that she might write other stories in this world--I'm thinking Dumbledore--she put enough of his backstory in this book to whet everyone's appetite.
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The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows ***Spoilers***
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2007, 03:18:27 PM »
yeah, but there's an intervening 19 years. As a way of telling people the story's over, that was weak. In fact, it was jsut weak. I wanted somethign more immediate -- maybe he could, you know, court ginny? Snog her because now she's not in trouble? I dunno. Just chop off the epilogue. It was weak.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows ***Spoilers***
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2007, 03:50:27 PM »
 

[hide]I don't know if this explanation will satisfy you SE, but here's how I saw the sword thing. Yes the goblin took it, but it has a magical ability for a true Griffyndor to draw the sword to him/her when it's needed, and I'm assuming the sorting hat is the mode of transportation. I personally had no problem with it and actually liked it since the goblin essentially stole it (i.e. he didn't wait for Harry to voluntarily give it to him as payment). Its home will always be Hogwarts no matter (afterall, I got the impression that the school has been around a LONG time and so Hogwarts has been its home MUCH longer than the goblin had it), and in the possession of a Gryffindor (it can be owned by others, but only temporarily, until it's needed by a Gryffindor). Of course, this is mostly my speculation.

Oh, also, on the bad guy death count, you can add Peter Pettigrew.[/hide]

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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows ***Spoilers***
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2007, 04:09:17 PM »
[hide]Oh yeah, wormtail. Forgot about him. Choked to death by his own hand. That's pretty unique.

My problem with that explanation is that it assumes that wizard ideas of ownership are correct. Why do we so easily discount the justness of the goblin point of view? In his mind, he shouldn't have even had to deal for the sword. His people should have had it for centuries. Now, in many ways, wizards were right about house elves. With the exception of Dobby, none of them wanted to be masterless. but they still treated them as worthless on the whole. I suspect that wizards could be wrong about justly having the sword. So... yeah, still annoyed by it.[/hide]

Phaz

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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows ***Spoilers***
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2007, 05:38:12 PM »
[hide]

Based on what I've read/heard/thought of, this is what I think can explain the hat/sword and "unbeatable" wand.

For the hat/sword issue, in one interview she said "There is more to the Sorting Hat than what you have read about in the first three books."  It should be noted, that she isn't talking about the sword coming from it, since that happened in the second book.  It's known now that the sorting hat was originally owned by Godric Gryffindor.  My guess is, the reason that Neville was able to get the sword, was because there is such a strong connection between it and the hat, since both were owned at one point, by the same wizard.   Godric Gryffindor obviously didn't create the sword (since goblins did) but I think it's safe to say he did modify it some (putting his name on it) and could of thrown some magic on it to tie it to the hat as well.

Also, the explanation I think is the strongest about the "Unbeatable" wand, is that mainly, the "unbeatable" part, is just part of the children's story.  If I'm not mistaken, the only time it's referred to as unbeatable, is directly in the story.  Now, as Dumbledore brings up, the story is likely just a story, and not a real account of what happened.  I'm sure there are countess examples of a similar thing happening in real life, where a real event is exaggerated, and then simplified into a children's  story.   

Based on that, you can assume that the wand wasn't unbeatable, but simply a much more powerful wand.  It would do the same spells, but do them stronger.  More evidence for this, is that Harry was able to determine that the first wand Hermione gave him didn't feel quite as powerful as his own.  So we know it's possible for a wizard to judge the power of their wand.  Later on, Voldemort says that the Elder Wand doesn't seem as powerful as it should.  Based on that, it would seem that Voldemort knew that the wand was just a "stronger" wand.  If it did have some magical unbeatable property tied to it, then it would of acted on it's own (I would think) more like Harry's did at the beginning when Voldemort was coming after him after they fled Privett drive.   Based on that, I don't think the wand was unbeatable.  I think it was just a very powerful one, and the children's story about it just labeled it as being so.

Another theory I have heard, is that since the wand is part of the Deathly Hallows, which are objects used to defeat death, the master of the wand can lose a duel with it, if the attacker doesn't have any intention of killing the wizard who is the master.  This would explain why Grindelwald is still alive, and Dumbledore had the wand.  It would also explain why Draco was able to defeat Dumbledore (Since it seemed like Draco wasn't going to kill him).

[/hide]
« Last Edit: July 25, 2007, 05:50:23 PM by Phaz »

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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows ***Spoilers***
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2007, 05:58:12 PM »
 

[hide]I don't really get what you're saying. Yes, in his mind the goblins owned all things made by goblins and wizards/witches are only borrowing goblin-made items when they buy them. But what does that have to do with the sword coming to Neville? Just because that is how the goblins see it doesn't mean that is how it is. As Phaz just pointed out, Godric Gryffindor probably modified the sword magicly. He was obviously a very powerful wizard, and probably knew a way to make the object "loyal" in a sense to those who strive to follow in Gryffindor's footsteps (or something). So I really don't see why the sword couldn't be called by a true Gryffindor in a time of need, no matter what the goblins' views of ownership are.

Maybe it was wrong of Gryffindor to enchant the sword in this way, and maybe wizard's and witch's views on ownership are off (as with the house elves), but it still makes sense to me in the Harry Potter-verse. (Although I have to say I don't think they're wrong when it comes to owning goblin-made items. In my opinion, If you pay for an item then it's yours and you should be able to pass it down to whomever you want when you die, whether it's made by goblins or not.) [/hide]
« Last Edit: July 25, 2007, 06:02:42 PM by Tink »

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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows ***Spoilers***
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2007, 11:16:31 PM »
I enjoyed the book. Maybe I'll discuss it after I'm able to read the posts. :)

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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows ***Spoilers***
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2007, 01:30:48 PM »
[hide]Phaz: the relative power of the wands is explained by mastership, not actual power. That's in the text. It doesn't demonstrate anythign about hte properties of the actual wands (though she does say there are varying qualities of wands, I'm just saying your arguments are faulty and unnecessary)

Tink: Ownership has to do with it because you were saying that it "belonged to" gryffindor and hogwarts for so long. Magic isn't like the law. Posession has less to do with it. Harry possesses the wand Ron passes to him, but it's weak and ineffectual because he doesn't have mastership of the wand. If ownership applies at all to other items, than the Sword is not Gryffindor's at all. It was justly passed to the goblin. Not when Harry wanted to, but then Harry planned to deceive the goblin. Phaz's argument makes more sense, but if so, then you're adding material that isn't in the book. It's speculative, in other words. So I'm still unsatisfied with it, since it still points to a flaw in the text.[/hide]

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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows ***Spoilers***
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2007, 04:48:21 PM »
[hide]JK Rowling did an interview with NBC. It DOES have some spoilers for those who have NOT read the book. It's great for those who have, including saying what Ron, Harry, and Hermione are doing for a living. It can be found here for anyone interested.[/hide]

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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows ***Spoilers***
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2007, 05:20:02 PM »
Thanks for the link--very informative and enjoyable to watch.

Fellfrosch

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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows ***Spoilers***
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2007, 11:31:23 PM »
I just finished; I'll read the thread and then edit this post with my thoughts.

[hide]Alright: as with most things in life, I agree with Ben almost across the board here. I've been pulling for Snape ever since book 2, when it turned out Rowling was really going to follow the "mean but still a good guy" thing that makes his character so fascinating. There had to be a very good reason for him to want to help Dumbledore, and a very important role for him to play in the plan. I felt that the former was handled rather well--he wants to protect Lily's daughter--although to some degree that cheapened his motives for me to know that he was doing it because he loved Lily, and not because he loved goodness and had an inherently noble heart (mind you--I do think that he had an inherently noble heart, I just don't like the way it was explained, if that makes sense). The latter, Snape's role to play in the grand plan, was a complete and utter let down. There's no two ways around it. Dumbledore's grand plan for Snape was twofold: he would tell Harry that he was a Horcrux, and he would protect the Hogwarts students from the worst excesses of the Carrows. Snape was highly positioned in the Death Eaters, second only to Voldemort himself in the end, and perfectly positioned for a treacherous blow at an opportune time. The fact that he never got to make that heroic move, and instead died in humiliating ignominy, really, really bothered me. Knowing that he brought the sword to Harry in the forest, and the fact that Harry called him "the bravest man he ever knew" and named his son after him, made me feel a little better, and may even have brought a little tear to my eye, but overall I thought Snape's arc was a huge letdown.

While we're talking about redemptions that never paid off, I, like someone else mentioned earlier, kept expecting Draco to turn. He had a perfect opportunity in the Malfoy's house (though I have to admit that I liked that scene a lot, even when it didn't go the way I wanted it to), and he had another opportunity at the end in the Room of Requirement, but instead we got, as with Snape, ignominy in the place of heroism. Draco has been Harry's foil throughout the series, and his ending should have been as meaningful, whether for good or evil, but instead of learning his lesson or going down in a blaze of evil glory, all he did was drift into insignificance. Again, the epilogue did a little to assuage this, by turning Draco into the new generation's Snape (picked-on-boy who hates the Potters) and passing his hatred on to the next generation, but generational cycle sagas are why I read Isabel Allende, not J.K. Rowling.

Those two paragraphs are a long way of saying that this series ended up being way too light on redemption for my taste. It was far too deterministic--the good guys got rewarded, the bad guys got punished, and very few people ever crossed the line between them. Anything that looked like a sudden switch of allegiances was actually presaged by several decades of prehistory, and the closest thing we ever got to redemption--a bad guy seeing the error of his ways and becoming good--was Kreacher. This was a moral series in that good triumphed over evil, but it was not a series in which people made life-changing moral decisions.

(That's not true, actually, because Xenophilius went from good to desperate and sold out the heroes, but I still think my overall statement applies. Nobody ever moved from one camp to the other except Snape, which is why he was the most interesting character, and why his ending was so grossly disappointing.)

Moving on: I also agree with Ben in that the Deathly Hallows thing ended up being inconsequential to the plot. It was very important to the character development, I think, but I can't find a good plot reason for Dumbledore to have passed along the clues to Harry. It's a little unfair to compare them to midichlorians, because they made perfect sense within the world, but the book could have happened almost identically without them.

I've mentioned the epilogue a few times already, but let me say clearly that I thought it was an excellent end to the series. The only thing missing was finding out who the new headmaster is--I thought for sure it would be Harry, but then when it apparently wasn't him I figured it would be Hermione, and then when it wasn't her I became ever more desperate to find out who it was. I assume McGonagall, maybe, but come on, book, throw me a bone!

I have one final comment in this ginormous essay, and I will begin by saying that anyone who complained that the deaths in the book didn't mean anything (ahem, Steve) must have read a different book than I did. I thought that every single main character death in the book was given proper reverence. What I did not like was the very cursory treatment given to the child of Lupin and Tonks. Harry's outburst with Lupin near the beginning stemmed from the fact that he couldn't stand the thought of another baby losing his parents the way he did--and then that's exactly what happened at the end, and all of a sudden we had another orphan who's parents were killed by Death Eaters, and I expected more from that--some emotion, some worry, some solemn promises that he would be raised in love and so on and so on, and instead, we got less than nothing. Grr.

There were a lot of things I liked about the book too, I promise, but I'm out of time. I'll get back to you.
[/hide]
« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 12:46:01 AM by Fellfrosch »
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows ***Spoilers***
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2007, 01:21:29 PM »
[hide]Listen to that interview linked earlier, it's not McGonagall, because she's too old. It's "someone new" I mean, come on. We don't know every single wizard and witch that could be remotely important. Harry and Ron are Aurors. Hermione is high up in the ministry of magical enforcement. Ginny ... is a mom? I dunno. She didn't mention her I don't think. Anyway, that doesn't help the book, itself, since it's another source, but I suppose it can be considered canon.

I repeat that while the plot itself would have happened identically without the hallows, that doesn't make them unimportant.  They were still worth the time ine th book.

[/hide]What I'm getting is that you were annoyed because things didn't go the way you wanted. I find that an odd but startlingly common reaction among many people on a wide variety of subjects. I dont' read or watch things for them to go the way I want. [hide]I probably would have redeemed malfoy if I had written it, but frankly, he never really had a reason to be redeemed. He planned for a whole year to kill a man. He was a git. And while I like to see people become better, I also like to see that just because you're not the worst evil ever doesn't mean that you're not still a tremendous butthole. Harry saved him, and Malfoy made a choice to still be in Snape's camp. I don't think it was deterministic. I think the chance was offered and he didn't take it. I liked that Dumbledore's plans weren't perfect -- that Snape didn't get to do his thing, etc. It made Dumbledore more... Jeffersonian to me, and more human. Snape, frankly, didn't deserve much of a heroism either. He constantly chose to favor Malfoy -- the bully and bigot -- over Harry, for no other reason than to be mean.

I think that the story has been less about redemption and much more about how good can navigate the waters of the world. What kinds of deals are acceptable? What can one do? How can you treat each other. In that sense, the ideas were interesting. [/hide]

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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows ***Spoilers***
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2007, 04:30:05 PM »
[hide]I don't think HP is about redemtion.

I was satisfied with the whole Snape story for the most part. Snape is neither good or evil in the end, just a person who has done good and evil things, making him a well thought out character. His death was a little ignimatic, but a lot of other important characters got ignimatic deaths (i.e., Lupin).

I do see death as an important theme in HP. I like that J.K. doesn't treat it trivially. During a crisis, people die, so J.K. kills people off. Some people have dramatic deaths, and other have very unexpected deaths. HP takes a very universal approach to death that isn't fatalistic, it simply accepts that death happens and takes it something not to be feared nor embraced.

If the death of every character was some dramatic, poignant moment in the series, then the series would be one long melodrama. It also wouldn't make death very meaningful. So I agree with J.K.'s decision to make death meaningful rather than dramatic.

I also think the Deathly Hallows story-lined served its purpose. Mostly, being a red-herring that shifts the readers focus for half-the book so other things can play out off-stage. I would have liked to have scene some of those off-stage moments, but one thing I like about HP is that the protagonist isn't always present during every major event.

At least that's what I'm thinking right now.
[/hide]
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Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows ***Spoilers***
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2007, 02:09:22 AM »
[hide]I readily admit that many of my complaints come from the fact that things just didn't go my way. Another part of it, though, and a large part, is that the series as a whole seemed to be building toward a much better payoff for Snape and Draco. So while it is primarily an issue of the book not matching my expectations, the expectations in question were specifically planted by Rowling over the course of seven books.[/hide]
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