Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows ***Spoilers***

[origamikaren]

Don't say you weren't warned!  Highlight below for spoilers (if I can get the right color -- otherwise stop reading now!!!

I mean it!!!

Really bad spoilers about to show  up!!!


I got the book in the mail Saturday, and was finished by 10:30 pm.  That was about 8 hours of reading (I generally average about 100 pgs per hour if you care).  I've been sitting on it for more than 19 hours now, and nobody will talk to me about it because they're all so slow!!! I even dreamed about Harry Potter all nigh. At any rate, I thought that I could post here, and vent, and then people could respond when they get around to it which is better than nothing.

OK the spoilers are really starting now, so don't get mad at me.

[hide]I just want to say right off the bat that I was totally right about Snape.  I'll agree that a lot of other people were too, but I just wanted to rub it in to all those people who thought, no--he has to be evil--he's been faking all along.  There were just too many things forshadowing the final way things turned out, and I would have felt cheated if she'd made him altogether bad.  (though I didn't guess how close he and Lily were at one point, or that Petunia had briefly wanted to attend Hogwarts)

Also-- Wow that book was a holocaust!  She was killing people off left and right!  Mad-Eye, Remus AND Tonks, Fred, Snape, Scrimgour, Bathilda Bagshot, not to mention the bad guys Voldemort, Pettigrew, etc...and that's just off the top of my head.  There were plenty more mentioned.  I didn't think she'd really kill off any of the top three -- Harry, Ron and Hermione, but I thought that Hagrid might be in danger, and I was pretty sure the Weasleys couldn't get off scot free.

I was surprised that the three didn't go back to Hogwarts for classes.  I was sure she'd set it there, but I can see that in the world she set up for this one, they really couldn't have.  It did make me wonder how they'll deal with the obviously stunted education everybody got -- or didn't get that year as the world moves on.  Will they have a do-over year where all the mudbloods and muggle borns who were kicked out can make up what they missed?  Will there be a special eighth year class?  I realize that formal education was always kind of chancy in their world, but surely OWL's and NEWT's count for something (or why would they bother with them?), and there's a significant portion of the population that simply missed out (did they have ANY NEWT's that year?).

I did cry when Harry was going off to die and called up his parents and Sirius and Remus for support.  It was so sad and noble.  It's telling that he DIDN'T call up Dumbledore.  At any rate, Harry has always been a Messianic Archetype, so I guess we knew it had to happen.  It was comforting to know that the snake was still around, so it couldn't have been the end, so I figured he'd be back, but still... HE didn't.

I also thought it was interesting that Dumbledore defeated Grindenwald (sp? Peter's reading the book right now so I don't have it to check) in 1945.  She's obviously telling us that he was the "real" evil behind the Nazis in WWII.  She's obviously drawing parallels to the Nazi racism, facist dictatorship, police-state, etc in these books.  I think that she's also trying to make a statement about our current troubles with terrorism, and that we shouldn't blindly accept what the media and/or government is telling us, and that we shouldn't allow ouselves to support anything resembling that kind of human rights abuse based simply on race.  What do you think about her poitical agenda?

 [/hide]

OK I think that's all I have to say right now.  I'm sure that I'll have opinions on whatever you think is important...so hurry up and read the book so we can discuss.

[Spriggan]

changed the spoiler tags she was useing to Hide tags so you have to post in this tread to see what she posted, anyone else that wants to talk spoilers please use [hide ] as well.

[Parker]

[hide]I really enjoyed the book. Took me about seven hours to read it, and I'd also like to hear what other people had to say. There were a couple of times in the book that I really was happy/sad for the characters--Rowling did a great job over the course of the series making these people seem real, and so when they made important decisions, I really felt it. I did feel that the explanation of the ending was kind of convoluted, but maybe it's because I was reading so fast by then. Her prose still came across as clunky now and then, but I don't read HP for gorgeous prose--I read it for the plot and characters and setting.

The little epilogue . . . not sure how I felt about that. It felt a tad too tacked on to me. I didn't need everything tied up THAT much, and I think I would have preferred to have it just end without the epilogue.

I was very pleased to see that she managed to make it a bloodbath--thus giving it the proper impact--but also managed to let the main three escape. That would have been really sad.

Anyway--now I'm reading it to my wife. I'm just relieved no one can spoil it for me. That was my big concern. I think this ending truly makes the series and completes it very justly.  Thumbs up from me.[/hide]

[Harbinger]

[hide]I thought the backstory given in Snape's memory was a great touch. It helped to flesh out not only the Snape/Potter dynamic, but also why Petunia so hated magic.

Some things that surprised me:
I expected the Malfoys to turn away from Voldemort after all he had put them through. Before the very end, I mean. When Harry was in their basement dungeon was the perfect opportunity.
I had reserved judgment on Snape for lack of evidence either way, but killing Dumbledore on his own orders? Wow.
Dumbledore's whole attitude on how to go about doing good.

There's other stuff, of course, I'm just trying to assimilate it all right now. I reread Half Blood Prince last week, and spent yesterday and today with Deathly Hallows. Good times.[/hide]

For the record, I think the [ hide ] thing is silly. If you read a thread with "spoilers" in the title, and don't think there will be spoilers, you're a git.

[Parker]

I'll agree about that hide thing--it's a pain, and I don't think it's necessary. If this thread takes off, having to "hide" every comment is going to get old fast.

[Spriggan]

The main reason for it is it Hides spoilers from the recent posts and RSS features, I'm not expecting every post in this thread to use the hide tag but for the first few days it's common courtesy on something this big.

[Tink]

[hide]Well, of course I really liked and was really glad that Harry lived (and Ron and Hermione). It was cool to see them in 19 years, but they sounded so different at the end, I felt disconnected. I know, it'd been 19 years. Of course they would be way different, but I still felt disconnected.

I think with the NEWTs thing, since they can be homeschooled, I'm assuming they can also take the NEWTs without attending a school, so maybe they studied for a year with Hermione and took them the next year. Since Rowling didn't say their occupation, it'd be pretty hard to know if they needed it for what they decided to do. I have to say, though, that if Harry wanted to be an Auror, I have a feeling that they would let him into the training for it despite not having taken the NEWTs. I mean he defeated Voldemort afterall.

I was sad that Snape's Potions book likely got burned in the fire. His insights on Potion-making were brilliant and could really help Harry and others in the future. I was really glad he was redeemed and thought how it all worked out was wonderful. I don't see why he had to be SO mean to Harry that whole time. Snape should've just focused on Harry being Lily's son, rather than James's. But whatever.

I was so glad to see how both Ron and Neville stepped up to the plate and became leaders. Ron really grew out of his not having confidence in himself, which really made him a better match for Hermione. And Neville taking over at Hogwarts was brilliant! Esp. when he stood up to Voldemort after he thought Harry was dead and killed Nagini. Awesome!

I really liked how the final battle was at Hogwarts, where Harry feels most comfortable. I liked how the teachers immediately rallied around him and the students as well. I really felt that when he started the DA that they would one day be the ones standing behind him against Voldemort. He was creating strong allies when he did that. It was also cool how Neville was able to inform others to come to Hogwarts to help fight.

And of course when Harry came out of the invisibility cloak at the end, totally shocking everyone and giving hope to his allies, was just so cool. I LOVED that part.  [/hide]

[Bookstore Guy]

I must admit, I lowered my expectations going into this book.  I figured that there was no way it could live up to the hype.  I was right, but I'm sure glad I only paid $17 for it.  Holy Plot-Holes Batman!!

[hide]I was fine with the book until they go to Hogwarts.  The pacing was great, and the settings were well described.  Making the Horcruxes be like the One Ring was a little much for me, but whatever.  The battles were chaotic and involved.  Too bad that stopped happening at the end.  There was that line during the final battle where it says that hundreds stood watching the duels...Are you freakin' kidding me?  Never mind that thier whole future is at stake, and never mind that the people there stayed because they were old enough to fight.  Nah, no sense in fighting when you can just watch.  Lets have a 4-page scene of them circling like that rediculous "battle" in Pirates 3 while Harry tells us whats going on.  While this happens, lets have Voldy get dumber and dumber to the point where he whines that Harry is a liar.  And then lets have thier "duel" be one whole spell. 

Oh, and lets just forget the line that Mrs. Weasley stole from Aliens.  So glad he turned out to be an expert in dueling.  It would have been much more fitting had she just tackled the dumb Death Eater.

The thing that was the worst was that death didnt matter in this book.  In previous volumes, when death entered the picture, it was tragic, and it affected people.  The "bloodbath" at the end doent even matter.  The deaths of Dobby the house elf and Moody ended up being more important than the deaths of the main side characters.  Members of the only true family Harry had die, and he decides he will have time to talk to them later.    There was no major cost to Harrys victory.  Nobody important died.

Teachers - so, who actually should have been the teachers in this series?  The Death Eaters are continually getting pwned by students, only to then whup-up on the teachers at Hogwarts...the lesson?  Take dueling classes from Luke Skywalker-errr excuse me - Harry Potter.

There are dozens of other things that bugged me, but I'm done ranting.  To end on a more positive note, this series has done something remarkable - it got people reading.  The series on the whole was pretty decent, and I'm glad that millions of people decided to read.  I hope that this helps people continue to read in the future.[/hide]

[Parker]

Care to elaborate on that statement?

[Phaz]

[hide]

Does anyone have a good understanding of how the piece of Voldemort's soul left harry, and how exactly matching up the 3 Deathly Hallows affected things?

[/hide]

[Bookstore Guy]

[hide]  it doesnt - the only thing important was that the cloak hide Harry through the whole series.  It felt very midichlorians (spelling) from Lucas.  [/hide]

[Tink]

[hide] And now we know why Lily was so good at potions. [/hide]

[Peter Ahlstrom]

[hide]I basically love the heck out of this book. I have no problems at all with it, and I don't consider any of those things to be plot holes. (Well, the thestrals thing still bothers me, since this book made it clear that baby Harry was watching when Lily died. Maybe the death has to be understood in order for thestrals to be visible?)

This was the best book by far. Nonstop action. I thought it was very tight.

And about the 3 hallows: Harry never had all 3 in his possession at the same time, unless you count being master of the wand before physically touching it.

When he dropped the stone in the woods, I assumed he just dropped it in his pocket, until he specifically said later that he dropped it in the woods. Also, even if normal people didn't realize he had the 3 hallows, everyone knows he has/had the wand, and what wand it was. That makes him a target.[/hide]

[origamikaren]

[hide]
A few things I wanted to comment on:

1. Somebody mentioned clunky prose.  As I've re-read the books this last couple weeks, and also read other people's comments, I've come to agree that the prose is often "clunky"  I think that some of the later books could have been much more tightly plotted, and that there are whole sections where nothing important happens that should have been condensed or cut.  I mean how many times do we have to see Ron and Hermione annoyed at each other, or Harry feeling teenagee angst while putting off or not being able to solve a mystery?  Even while reading it the first time, there were parts when I felt like shouting, "Get on with it woman!!!"

2. Regarding Snape's Potions Book:  Why didn't he write his own book?  This one is at least 20 years old, and doesn't look like it has even been updated with a new edition.  If he had that many ideas while he was taking the class himself, he must have similar revisions to make for the whole series.  Failing that, he could have at least given out hints during lectures or lab setups.  As it is, he's a particularly bad person to hire as a teacher if he won't even share the basic shortcomings of the textbook with the students he likes (the Slytherins).

3.Why can't he see Harry as Lily's son rather than James's?  I think that if Harry had ended up in Slytherin, Snape might've had a chance of seeing him that way. As it was Harry looked so much like James, and very early on was involved in a) a rivalry with Malfoy b) playing quidditch,  I think that even Harry's eyes became a liability to him reminding Snape of how much he'd lost, and who he saw as taking her from him.  I think he blamed James for not being able to protect her, and Harry for being the reason Voldemort went there in the first place. He was doing what he could against Voldemort -- which was taking a huge toll on him emotionally, There was no more he could do against James, but he could make sure Harry suffered for his part in Snape's pain, and for continually reminding him of it.

4. I think that Neville's character arc is one of the very best in the series.  As early as book 1, he tries, and is rewarded for, bravely standing up for what's right.  He has as much reason as Harry to want to fight Voldemort (maybe more since he's had to live with the damage to his parents all these years).  Growing up in his house could not have been fun with everyone scaring the magic out of him.  Yet in each book he slowly finds ways to succeed: focusing on what he's good at, and working really hard at the rest.  Once he started getting having real success at difficult spells with teh DA, and real encouragement from his Gran (after the Department of Mysteries success), it's natural that he would continue to focus on those areas.  Here's somebody wh you can really see how their motivations and realistic human emotions turn into logical decisions.  Hooray for characters that make sense!!!

5. I agree that Hogwarts was the ideal place for the last battle.  The school building itself could help with the fight, and most of the main characters we've come to know had a logical reason for being there (and sending out all the little kids to contact their parents and the OOP got the rest there).  Also, it's where the whole series was set, so she couldn't leave it out of this book altogether.  

6. Why were the Deathly Hallows there? a)to provide a compare and contrast between Voldemort and Dumbledore.  They both wanted power, specifically over death.  They both had the natural ability and charisma.  But when Dumbledore saw what it would cost, he gave it up, and tried to fight against others who tried to go down that path.  It's what he told Harry all along - it's your choices that determine who you are.  b) to let Harry know why Voldemort wanted Dumbledore's wand, and let Harry know how to defeat that advantage.  c) Getting all three didn't do any good.  You can't have true power over death in any meaningful way and still be a good person.  Anybody you bring back with the stone will be sad, to keep the wand you have to either refuse to use it or be a ruthless killer, and if you use the invisibility cloak all the time, you can't have a meaningful relationship with anyone. that's why d) Dumbledore did not send them on a quest to collect them.  He let them know they existed so they'd know how to counter them, but their real job was to get rid of the horocruxes that were another evil way of cheating death.  e) A major theme of the series is that death is sad for the ones left behind, but it's a natural part of the cycle of life.  Happy people don't come back as ghosts -- they move on.  You can't spend all your time wishing for dead people to come back and staring at them in the Mirror of erised.  Losing your soul is worse than being dead, etc.

OK that's all I have to say for now.  Keep it coming!


[/hide]

[42]

Just finished reading it. I'll have more to discuss later.