urge to kill rising... (a proof read rant)

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

heavens, sometimes you people can be foolish.

Godzemo, before you tell someone else to get their head out of the bush, perhaps you should either learn what statistics you're citing or read what I'm actually saying, neither of which you've apparently done.

Outkast, uhm... try spanish, portugues, french, italian and romanian to start with. and English may be Germanic in form, but my guess is that about a third of the vocabulary is inherited from romance languages -- Romance in this case being an alternate form of "Roman" meaning "Latin." Latin is still used religiously AND in science circles for terminology.
Plus the Greek spoken today is *not* the same Greek that was spoken by the 1500 years ago, let alone the language that Socrates spoke or Homer wrote in. I would say that Greek is still highly influential (many many languages, after all, use a lot of Greek roots -- though Greek was not the "basis" for Latin) but not as influential as Latin (which is  shame, because I can read Attic Greek but not Latin). Islam is roughly seven centuries NEWER than Christianity. That has nothing to do with legitimacy, though. What I'm saying is that the language has crossed borders more. While Arabic has had a very heavy influence on Spanish and Portuguese, it's primary influence in the west is only felt by it's retention of ancient Greek texts while the west didn't have it. I don't think you can reasonably argue that Arabic has as significant an influence outside of Arab and Muslim countries as English does.

Praytell, what points am I ignoring? The fact that there are more people today who speak other languages? I already addressed that. Of your examples, few show that you know how they relate to the topic at hand. The Romand DID own the world for hundreds of years. Alexander, while he conquered the world and spread elements of his culture, did more adopting of near-asian cultures then he did distributing his own, because that's what he wanted to do. The Mongols didn't want to rule the world, just loot it, and they did that pretty well. The Germans tried to rule the world, but never had a big enough chunk of it. Russia, to my knowledge, hasn't tried to rule the world but just chunks of it, and inasmuch as they tried to rule the world, they also did not have enough of it -- though where they had control (like the Eastern Bloc) you'll still find many, many people who can speak to you in Russian. The US has a much longer and influential claim than any of those examples than the Romans.

Oh, and the cheap shot? It wasn't directed at you. If you want to argue what I say, perhaps you should actually READ WHAT I POST. Jam was the one who said that, and I was responding to him.

Ent, you've completely missed my point. I've not said that every resident of the earth will be speaking American English. I said it will be the most politically influential. I also never gave a time span like 50 or 100 years. You're putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that your Brit Eng spellings will be transferred eventually as people have to deal more and more with Americans.  This doesn't mean that every citizen will speak American or any other form of English, but those who do international business will.

[42]

My opinion of the Australian education system has dropped considerably.

[The Jade Knight]

To address things I feel Saint E left out (generally, I agree with him):

First of all, Brits, remember my stance on British spelling and punctuation not long ago.  That said. . .

To respond to mercury_yume and others regarding the American "departure" from English:
You whine about how we're not intelligent, or competent, or loyal (hah!  After the war?) or what-have-you to retain "proper" English.  Well, for hundreds of years England was ruled by the Normans, and the official language of England was Norman (or Anglo-Norman, if you talk to certain linguists).  Sometimes history texts and teachers (as well as English texts and teachers) say it was the French.  This is a nasty historical innacuracy, and if anyone needs me to, I can provide proof of this.  Anyways, back on topic. . .

So, Norman was the "English" language, and yet when the Norman rulers of England (*cough*John "Lackland"*cough*) lost Normandy (to the French), the language was eventually morphed beyond recognition and lost into the "flow" of English, giving us Middle English.

Thus (my point):  The English have bastardized their own language.  They have no right to call Americans to task.  And regarding simplification, Modern British English is worlds simpler (in my opinion, at any rate) than either Norman or Old English, and I've studied both.

And for those wondering, English has borrowed significantly from French as well as Norman (both Romance languages), as well as from Latin itself.  It has also borrowed from several other Romance languages (such as Italian and Spanish), but to a lesser degree.

To preach that it is difficult to express certain ideas in English without utilizing Romantic terms is an understatement.  In the previous sentence, preach, difficult, express, certain, ideas, utilizing, Romantic and terms are all words that come from Latinate languages (borrowed into English).  Some could even argue that "an" is a borrowing, but I'm unsure on that one.

For Godzemo:
Modern Hebrew is actually an artificially constructed language, based off old Hebrew.  Before the founding of Israel, Jews spoke various versions of Yiddish, though many could read scriptural Hebrew.  And as a student of Chinese, I'll add that I disagree with your statement that it's nice on the ears.  My Chinese girlfriend, however, does not.

Ent:
China does not suppress religion.  However, they tightly control and monitor it.  A friend of mine who spent time doing religious work in China has told me that the Christian churches there have government-appointed ministers.  And the Communists frequently jail Tibetans carrying photographs of the Dalai Lama.

Okay, that's enough for now.

[fuzzyoctopus]

I'm disappointed. I was hoping you'd end with "And so we should all start speaking Welsh."

[Godzemo]

As it happens, I know that about modern hebrew; the point stands, however, that it is effectively still the same language as ancient hebrew, with a much expanded vocabulary. About Yiddish; that's true... for the European Jews. American Jews spoke English, for the most part.

Oh, and I happen to agree with the idea that English could well become a fairly universal trade language; it has been done before; Using the Roman example, while they were in power, Latin was the trade language for their entire empire.

SE, my apologies for getting the Buddhism comments blatantly wrong

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Oh, and you two: Make Bones post here already. If he refuses, sing "Bones, Bones, Bones, Bones, Don't you love to suck the marrow?" at him until he agrees.

Ok Ok, I wanted to stay out...

All of you people who say Latin is dead dont realize that it isnt. Just because French, Romaninan, and Spanish arent perfect technical latin they are amazing examples of bad provencial Latin. For people that lost almost every written book I think they did pretty good keeping ignorence at bay.

[The Jade Knight]

Well, Fuzzy, we really ought to all speak Welsh, seeing as it's obviously the closest we have on earth to the Celestial Language, but that's another topic entirely. . .


Godzemo:  You've missed the point entirely.  If we took Old English and invented a brand new language based off of it trying to keep true to the original, that doesn't remotely mean that the language has "survived intact" or anything of the sort.  Naturally it would be "unchanged" to a degree, that would be the very point of resurrecting it!  Hebrew was reinvented (or resurrected or what-have-you).  It did not survive unchanged.  It died, and only the creation of Israel as a nation for the Jews enabled it to return.  A more pragmatic approach would have been to make Yiddish the language of Israel.  But instead they reinvented Hebrew.  However, that language is less than 60 years old.  Hardly 4000!

And a great many orthodox (hasidic) Jews in America also spoke (and speak) Yiddish.


And in case you've missed it, English has become a fairly universal trade language.  People who both have differing native languages frequently use English to communicate with eachother.  English is considered "the language of business".  Granted, this is not perfectly universal, but the trend is certainly there.

English is THE big trade language right now.

[Melonade]

To JadeKnight: I never said English was original...it's amusing that it was mentioned that it was based on Latin, then that it was mainly Germanic...the English language is like the Japanese.:....uh...like Japan in general really...borrowed.

However, the Japanese, while having taken from all different elements of the world, managed to filter out a high level of the crap (Japanese culture and society impresses me, in case people though I was being insulting or something), while the English language is just about the most difficult language to learn.

So rather than being a 'culmination' the English langauge really is a 'bastardisation'...and yet has dominated...and is almost used by the most powerful country in the world.  Almost, because they use a 'dumbed down' version.

I suppose it makes a sort of sense to simplify words as the Americans have done, especially to make it easier to use for the rest of the world, expecially when it is enforced and recommended and taught so widely.  But it's not English is it?  It's not the 'original' English, it's a shell of it's former glory (it's glory being in it's lack of logic).  Other languages are adapted but are not still considered the same once adapted, they usually end up called something compeltely different...like Japanese ().

That would be why it's called 'American English' I suppose...it's just the retaining the name of the 'base' language confuses it to be 'similar' rather than a different language.

To 42: I agree...I was in it recently.../me shudders

...and to Master Xiao : squee ^_^

[JP Dogberry]

Hmm...Seems I missed locking this one. It goes now, anyway. Not saying I'm not at fault or anything, but that's enough.