Author Topic: Best book you've ever read...  (Read 40935 times)

maxonennis

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Re: Best book you've ever read...
« Reply #150 on: February 07, 2009, 04:24:47 AM »
I note the lack of Robert Jordan titles with interest.  8) (just kidding)

I would rate tEotW at somewhere between 6 to 10, the only reason I wouldn't rate it higher is because of all the copycat novels. They've tarnished tWoT greatly for me--I still love it, but I go out of my way to avoid reading epic fantasy that follows the usual hero's journey (farm boy becomes king, magic sword, evil overlord etc.).
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Shaggy

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Re: Best book you've ever read...
« Reply #151 on: February 07, 2009, 04:33:10 AM »
Quote
farm boy becomes king, magic sword, evil overlord etc.
If I had only read these words, and not read anything else in the post, nor have any idea what you are talking about, I would have guessed you were talking about the fantasy/science-fiction genre.
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echigo109

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Re: Best book you've ever read...
« Reply #152 on: February 07, 2009, 05:19:54 AM »
DEFINITLY MISTBORN BY BRANDON SANDERSON

maxonennis

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Re: Best book you've ever read...
« Reply #153 on: February 07, 2009, 06:51:54 PM »
Quote
farm boy becomes king, magic sword, evil overlord etc.
If I had only read these words, and not read anything else in the post, nor have any idea what you are talking about, I would have guessed you were talking about the fantasy/science-fiction genre.

Exactly, overused.
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Shaggy

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Re: Best book you've ever read...
« Reply #154 on: February 07, 2009, 07:59:12 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Shaggy on Yesterday at 10:33:10 PM
Quote
farm boy becomes king, magic sword, evil overlord etc.
If I had only read these words, and not read anything else in the post, nor have any idea what you are talking about, I would have guessed you were talking about the fantasy/science-fiction genre.

Exactly, overused.
If something is overused, you must figure there is a reason it is used so  much.
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maxonennis

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Re: Best book you've ever read...
« Reply #155 on: February 08, 2009, 12:25:02 AM »
Quote
If something is overused, you must figure there is a reason it is used so  much.

 ::)

Your confusing a archetype and a clique. The farm boy turned king, clique. The magic sword, clique. The evil overlord, clique.
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SarahG

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Re: Best book you've ever read...
« Reply #156 on: February 09, 2009, 07:16:15 PM »
You mean cliché, right?
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Shaggy

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Re: Best book you've ever read...
« Reply #157 on: February 09, 2009, 10:42:01 PM »
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's not how you spell it.

I never mentioned cliches or archetypes…did I??
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Re: Best book you've ever read...
« Reply #158 on: February 10, 2009, 12:47:23 AM »
Not directly, but indirectly you did. Farm-boy-turned-king, magic swords, and evil overlords are clichés. What you said about something being over-used, yet that over-usage means that it's good is more archetypal. Archetypes=good. Clichés=bad. Generally....
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Re: Best book you've ever read...
« Reply #159 on: February 10, 2009, 03:43:13 AM »
Well, I wasn't saying they were good…well, I guess I kind of was. What I was TRYING to say was that cliches, before they became overused/cliches, must've had some value to them.
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Re: Best book you've ever read...
« Reply #160 on: February 10, 2009, 04:23:34 PM »
Quote
farm boy becomes king, magic sword, evil overlord etc.

These are archtypes. Archtypes can be cliches in stories if they are used improperly but they still derive from archtypes.

The Peasant King, the Magic Sword, etc. These are not bad at all. Not cliche. They form the basis for a great deal of collective mythology.

They only become cliche if the person using them does not do so in a new/original way, or just copies them straight from the mythical archtypes without any twist.

The Peasant King can be seen in the American dream. Rags to riches. This is a powerful motif. It has meaning in the social subconscious.

The cliches are the ones where you can obviously draw a one to one comparison. 'X is definitely King Arthur just ported directly into this story.' However if the Peasant King also has self immolation (ie. Messianic properties) along with a host of other new/differentcharacteristics, then it doesn't resemble the exact archtype anymore. You can see influences of the archtype, but it has escaped being cliche because it encompasses MORE than just the 'Peasant King'.

Jordan used a lot of archtypes, but never one per person. He created real characters who filled several roles, had complex personalities and motivations and whose story was more than just Good vs. Bad.

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maxonennis

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Re: Best book you've ever read...
« Reply #161 on: February 10, 2009, 05:05:33 PM »
Quote
farm boy becomes king, magic sword, evil overlord etc.

These are archtypes. Archtypes can be cliches in stories if they are used improperly but they still derive from archtypes.

The Peasant King, the Magic Sword, etc. These are not bad at all. Not cliche. They form the basis for a great deal of collective mythology.

They only become cliche if the person using them does not do so in a new/original way, or just copies them straight from the mythical archtypes without any twist.

The Peasant King can be seen in the American dream. Rags to riches. This is a powerful motif. It has meaning in the social subconscious.

The cliches are the ones where you can obviously draw a one to one comparison. 'X is definitely King Arthur just ported directly into this story.' However if the Peasant King also has self immolation (ie. Messianic properties) along with a host of other new/differentcharacteristics, then it doesn't resemble the exact archtype anymore. You can see influences of the archtype, but it has escaped being cliche because it encompasses MORE than just the 'Peasant King'.

Jordan used a lot of archtypes, but never one per person. He created real characters who filled several roles, had complex personalities and motivations and whose story was more than just Good vs. Bad.



Definition of Archetype:

“A universally recognizable element . . . that recurs across all literature and life (Latrobe 13).  Psychologist Carl Jung called these elements a kind of “collective unconscious” of the human race, prototypes rather than something gained from experience.  The word is derived from the Greek: arche, original, and typos, form or model; thus, original model (Latrobe 13). 

An archetype is the first real example or prototype of something (as the Model T is the prototype of the modern automobile).  In this sense an archetype can be considered the ideal model, the supreme type or the perfect image of something (Brunel 111-112, 114).

A key to understanding folk literature is to understand archetypes.  “An archetype is to the psyche what an instinct is to the body. . . . . Archetypes are the psychic instincts of the human species.” (Edinger as quoted in Knapp 10).  Archetypes are universal in human beings. Archetypes result in a deep emotional response for readers.

 “Archetypes are repeated patterns that recur in the literature of every age” (Sloan 48).

Examples of Archetypes

Characters:

Hero (think of the classic hero journey & qualities of hero)
·   “The main character leaves his or her community to go on an adventure, performing deeds that bring honor to the community” (Herz and Gallo 121).

Mother figure
·   Fairy Godmother (surrogate mother)—comforts and directs child, especially when he or she is confused and needs guidance.  Represents powers that can be called on for help when it is needed.  Helps young person to solve own problems (Knapp 71).
·   Earth Mother
·   Stepmother

The great teacher/mentor
·   Wise old men/women—protects or helps main character when he or she faces challenges.

The innocent
·   Child/Youth
·   Inexperienced adult
Underdog

Double
·   Split personality—the other side of an individual

Helping animals

The Sacrificial Redeemer
·   “The protagonist is willing to die for his or her beliefs; the main character maintains a strong sense of morality” (Herz and Gallo 123).

Scapegoat/Sacrificial Victim

Enchantress/Temptress

The Giant/Monster/Ogre

Villain
·   Wolf

Trickster

Evil figure
·   The Devil
·   Serpent

Settings

Garden
·   Cultivated and carefully planned.  Restricted to certain vegetation.

Forest
·   Habitat of the Great Mother (Mother Nature), the lunar force.  Fertility.  The vegetation and animals flourish in this “green world” because of the sustaining power of the Great Mother.  Symbolically the primitive levels of the feminine psyche, protective and sheltering.  Those who enter often lose their direction or rational outlook and thus tap into their collective unconscious.  This unregulated space is opposite of the cultivated gardens, which are carefully planned and are restricted to certain vegetation.

Tree
·   Represents life and knowledge

Caves and tunnels
·   Deep down where character delves into self
·   Place that character goes when “invisible” or inactive
·   At the extreme may signify death

Mountains and peaks
·   Highest peak is place to “see” far
·   Place to gain great insight
   
The River
·   Crossing river may symbolize new territory
·   Rivers can be boundaries or borders & on the other side is something new or different
·   May represent human life or time passing as we follow the river from its source to its mouth

The Sea
·   Vast, alien, dangerous, chaos
·   Waves may symbolize measures of time and represent eternity or infinity

Fountain
·   Stands for purification; the sprinkling of water (baptism) washes away sin.  Water of fountain gives new life (Knapp 32).

Islands
·   Microcosms or small worlds unto themselves
·   Represent isolation or get-a-ways

Actions/Events:

Journey--“The protagonist takes a journey, usually physical but sometimes emotional, during which he or she learns something about himself or herself or finds meaning in his or her life as well as acceptance in a community” (Herz and Gallo 112).
·   Linear
·   Circular
·   Quests
·   Quest for material wealth
·   Quest for security, as a secure place to live
·   Quest for kin
·   Quest for global good, such as when a kingdom is threatened
·   Quest for self, for self-identity or self-assurance

Rites of initiation

Parental Conflict and Relationships
·   “The protagonist deals with parental conflict by rejecting or bonding with parents” (Herz and Gallo 117).

Coming of age

Sleep
·   Crucial for physical and/or psychological healing.  During dreams, person can grow.  Person can fantasize freely in sleep.  A transitional and beneficial period.  In dream sphere can descend to the sphere of the Great Mother.  Person awakens with a greater understanding of human nature (Knapp 88).

Sacrificial rites

The Test or Trial
·   “In the transition from one stage of life to another, the main character experiences a rite of passage through growth and change; he or she experiences a transformation” (Herz and Gallo 115).

Birth/Death and Rebirth
·   “Through pain and suffering the character overcomes feelings of despair, and through a process of self-realization is reborn” (Herz and Gallo 110).

The Fall: Expulsion from Eden
·   “The main character is expelled because of an unacceptable action on his or her part” (Herz and Gallo 111).

Annihilation/Absurdity/Total Oblivion
·   “In order to exist in an intolerable world, the main character accepts that life is absurd, ridiculous, and ironic” (Herz and Gallo 116).

Works Cited

Brunel, Pierre.  Companion to Literary Myths, Heroes and Archetypes.  New York: Routledge, 1992.

Franz, Marie-Louise von.  Archetypal Patterns in Fairy Tales.  Toronto: Inner City, 1997.

Herz, Sarah K., and Donald R. Gallo. From Hinton to Hamlet: Building Bridges Between Young Adult Literature and the Classics. 2nd ed. Westport, CT: Greenwood, 2005.

Holman, C. Hugh, and William Harmon.  A Handbook to Literature.  6th ed.  New York: Macmillan, 1992.

Johnson, Terry D., and Daphne R. Louis.  Bringing It All Together.  Portsmouth, NH: Heinemann, 1990.

Knapp, Bettina L.  French Fairy Tales: A Jungian Approach. Albany: State U. of New York: 2003.

Latrobe, Kathy H., Carolyn S. Brodie, and Maureen White.  The Children’s Literature Dictionary.  New York: Neal-Schuman, 2002.

Sloan, Glenna Davis.  The Child as Critic.  3rd ed.  New York: Teachers College, 1991.
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Loud_G

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Re: Best book you've ever read...
« Reply #162 on: February 10, 2009, 05:20:51 PM »
Maxonennis: I'm sorry, but you just gave perfect rebuttal to your earlier argument :)

Thanks for backing me up :)
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readerMom

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Re: Best book you've ever read...
« Reply #163 on: February 10, 2009, 09:53:21 PM »
I'm having a AP English flashback  ;)

Shaggy

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Re: Best book you've ever read...
« Reply #164 on: February 10, 2009, 10:45:12 PM »
Best books ever; they come highly recommended:

Everyone Poops

The Gas We Pas

Why We Fart
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