Best book you've ever read...

[Shaggy]

Sounds like a plan, readerMom.  I found myself having similar feelings with Michael Crichton's The Great Train Robbery. It was truly ingenious.

[mtbikemom]

Sure you can provide exquisite plotting and character development during a sex scene. You can also do that writing about someone pooping. And you can do it in a "realistic manner", but it would be in just as bad taste as the other.

That statement is as outrageous as it is erroneous. If you prefer to not read authors that use "gratuitous" or "graphic" sequences that is your opinion and that is fine. But to bash an author just because he/she uses those sequences is absurd.

For some of us, I think it comes down to manners.  Do we want to encourage a little more degradation of the culture by buying books that we would be embarrassed to be seen reading?  It's like watching someone in polite company who does not know how to behave and then a few more join in and, pretty soon, everyone is coarse.  It is inevitable, I believe, but lamentable.

The Bible talks about wrong being right and right seeming wrong in the "last days."  Forgive my paraphrase.  Whatever you believe, our culture allows things on prime time television that would have caused a sailor to faint a hundred years ago.  Are we better for it?   

Thanks for your thoughtful words, ReaderMom.  Listen to your mother!

[Loud_G]

Sure you can provide exquisite plotting and character development during a sex scene. You can also do that writing about someone pooping. And you can do it in a "realistic manner", but it would be in just as bad taste as the other.

That statement is as outrageous as it is erroneous. If you prefer to not read authors that use "gratuitous" or "graphic" sequences that is your opinion and that is fine. But to bash an author just because he/she uses those sequences is absurd.

Why? Is using the bathroom more taboo than sex? IT happens everyday. Why don't we write about it? It has bearing and weight on REAL life. And an author could certainly provide just as much useful exposition in that kind of scene as the other. So, I don't think it was erroneous at all. Maybe some people like reading about people using the bathroom. Or should we not include bathroom scenes because it makes people queasy and because it is unnessessary and in and of itself cannot help a plot move forward? hmm.... Sounds familiar....

Now, I never said writers who did that were bad writers, but it is certainly bad writing. 97.534% of Game of Thrones was quite well written. So Martin obviously knows HOW to write. (and well too!) He just decided to throw in unnecessary stuff and tack on mild exposition so that it wouldn't be obvious pandering/gratuitousness. All the plot that was brought forth in those scenes could have EASILY been done without anatomy lessons and overt sensational wish fulfillment. Just as authors write wonderful stories with out a scene of the protagonist sitting on the toilet. They don't lose the gritty feeling by avoiding excrement, just as you won't lose grit by avoiding overly described, crude sex scenes.

--------------

Back on topic though, some of the best books I've read in that respect are the Wheel of Time, in which sex happens, but we don't have to wade through descriptions, anatomy lessons, and wish fullfillment.

I also think that Mistborn is among the best fantasy I've ever read (Thanks Brandon)

I think it would be hard to pinpoint the BEST single book I've ever read. WoT and Mistborn are certainly up there, but I've been affected by SO many good books that it is hard to decide.

[Comfortable Madness]

Why? Is using the bathroom more taboo than sex? IT happens everyday. Why don't we write about it? It has bearing and weight on REAL life. And an author could certainly provide just as much useful exposition in that kind of scene as the other. So, I don't think it was erroneous at all. Maybe some people like reading about people using the bathroom. Or should we not include bathroom scenes because it makes people queasy and because it is unnessessary and in and of itself cannot help a plot move forward? hmm.... Sounds familiar....

That isn't what I was saying at all. If a writer wanted to include bathroom scenes by all means have at it. Not taboo at all in my opinion. What I was saying is that it's completely erroneous to say a bathroom scene would provide the same useful character insight as a sex scene.

[The Jade Knight]

It certainly could provide an equivalent degree of insight.  Neither, of course, are remotely necessary unless one is writing a book about defecating or having sex, wot.

[Necroben]

I personally have written both types of scenes in my book.  My goal is to portray, in a realistic manner, the thinking and character of that person.  Getting inside this person's head, the deep dark shadows we all tend to avoid, and showing how feelings do not have to become actions.  Granted, I don't get gratuitous, but the scene is there and it has a purpose. 

Does this make me a bad or unimaginative writer?  I don't think so.  I have a target audience and so have to write/communicate in a way that they might get the point.  Religious convictions aside, those with them are not my target audience.  Odds are, they won't be offended by my writing.  I'm not trying to go out of my way to offend anyone, on the other hand I'm not going out of my way to avoid it either.

*I can't point to one book and say it's my favorite.  Many that I've read are part of a series, and so I'd go with the WOT.  Final answer.*

[Shaggy]

I just want to point out a difference between a sex scene and a bathroom scene. A bathroom scene is rarely central to the story–most of the time, they are omitted from the story altogether. However, a sex scene can be very important in certain stories. I myself have read several where a sex scene is told where one character gets intimate with the other, pretending to do it for enjoyment/pleasure, but is really trying to gain information from the other character. Unless you have talking toilets in your stories, that would probably not happen in a bathroom scene.… 

[Loud_G]

Unless you have talking toilets in your stories, that would probably not happen in a bathroom scene.… 

Hmm....Talking Toilets....I may have to add that into one of my books.... it strikes me as very Hitchhiker's Guide the Galaxy

I think the problem here is not the existence of sex in a story line (though a lot of arguments tend to boil down to "yes sex" or "no sex"). The real issue is the level of description and purpose of the text. Having sex occur in your story does not make you a bad writer. It is the level of detail that is the problem with most of these scenes. However, whenever I argue about the graphic nature or level of detail of sex scenes in fiction (or even movies), people get all defensive and start saying ridiculous things like "sex is a normal part of life" or "it is there for characterization".  That is fine. That is why we have the two (or more) people together, that however, does not license the author to do whatever he/she pleases in that scene.

Most of the sex scenes  I've seen have been very superfluous to the plot. Like the author was pounding his brain for an excuse (no matter how small) to put a lurid anatomy lesson into the text, rather than writing a scene that was efficient, to the point, and an effect vessel for the movement of plot.

I have never read one where I said to myself afterward "Wow, that REALLY sheds a lot of new light on the character in a completely different way than I would have ever understood otherwise." Never.

Even Martin's scenes weren't so much realistic or gritty as they were lurid and burdensome to the plot. They slowed the plot to a crawl to show the minute details and movements of a scene where only a hair's breadth of character was revealed. Those scenes last MUCH longer than any of the other 'defining character moments' where people have to make tough decisions that will affect the course of history. Which is why I am s skeptical of the purpose of such scenes when I come across them in books.

It is not the prude in me that is speaking as much as the critical reader. I was taught to think about what I read and make judgments. If it is there for titillation, fun, etc. it is in the wrong genre. If it is there to convey plot and character, it will be efficient in its description and short. Most of what I've seen are the first sort. If there is plot/character it is thrown in as an afterthought. The scenes are stretched out to epic proportions and the level of anatomic detail tend to range from the ridiculous to the truly disgusting.

People may disagree. However, I don't think the disagreements are based on story mechanics.

Brevity is the soul of wit, and indeed, it is ideal for the unfolding of story elements as well.

If a scene runs too long for its purpose, cut it.
If something doesn't move the plot along, cut it.

Writing isn't about living every moment and experience of life verbatim. It is distilling it down to something potent and transcendent.

So, Martin, by trying to be so realistic, has forfeited reality and lost the purpose of the scene.

[readerMom]

Thank you Loud_G for elucidating something I wouldn't have known how to express because I have never tried fiction writing.  Sex scenes as information gathering or characterization do not need the detail that is really what I find irritating and occasionally offensive.
Sex is important, we wouldn't be here without it, but it is too important to use for an easy scene and thrills.  And Martin is by no means the worst.  Neal Stephenson writes great books and pornography, unfortunately he combines them to make huge books that I have gotten fed up with. 

[Shaggy]

I agree with all that was said above. However, everyone does have to make a living. Writers will be able to write no longer if their books don't sell. And, however disgusting it is to admit it, sex in books is one way to appeal to a (younger) audience (teens, mostly). But then again, I doubt the books you are discussing are for most teenagers.…

[mtbikemom]

Thanks also from me, Loud_G, for your thoughtful post.  I agree with every point you make and am forced to remember my two very-different reactions to the famous "first time" scene for Rand in WoT. 

I was disappointed by that sex scene in the first reading, hoping to be able to share these books with my then 15-year-old son at the time.  On subsequent readings, I was surprised at how appropriate that wild scene was and how unusually well-written.  The characters' reactions afterward were consistent, I thought--unusual in most modern fiction.  RJ struck a good balance for my taste most of the time between voyeurism and telling too little. 

On the other hand, there is such a thing as not enough sex in a novel!  I have just encountered that in Brandon's Well of Ascension, I'm sorry to say.  I think there should have been a few references to Elend's desires for Vin, especially in the early chapters.  I mean, c'mon!  Men and women have very different reactions to affectionate embraces and it seemed especially out-of-character for Elend to react (not react, really) the way Mr. Sanderson wrote him.  I again have to compare to RJ's treatment of Rand's thoughts about women as he came of age.  He was constantly berating himself for thoughts he called "lecherous" and trying his best not to show it.  That is human and understandable and, I think, not to be avoided. 

Brandon's treatment of the eventual relationship between his main characters was more tasteful than Mr. Jordan's and very easy for me to read.  Obviously.  His values are akin to mine and it's so nice to read about a wholesome beginning to a marriage.  Most unusual in modern fantasy!

[Shaggy]

Not to get down on BS's writing or anything, but sometimes Elend and Vin in the first book and the first half of the second book reminded me of two fifth or sixth graders on their first date…like, really awkward and inexperienced.

[little wilson]

Wow. It's been a while since I last looked at this thread....I would say something about the sex stuff, but....it looks like that's already been covered by Loud's post (which I agree with completely)....plus, I've never read Martin.

Best books I've ever read....Hmm.

The basic list:
Mistborn
The Gemma Doyle Trilogy by Libba Bray
Uglies Trilogy by Scott Westerfeld (sci-fi)
The Count of Monte Cristo
.....Harry Potter

Oh, and as for a book that I couldn't stop thinking about even after I finished. That happens a lot, but I think the most recent one that affected my thoughts the most was Hero of Ages. I literally couldn't stop thinking about that book...to the point where I couldn't really listen to music (which says a lot since I absolutely LOVE music....). I actually don't think a book has ever affected me as much as that one did.

[maxonennis]

My top five:

1.   The Old Man and the Sea

2.   To the God Unknown

3.   Moby Dick

4.   For Whom the Bells Toll

5.   The Shadow of the Torturer

These are the authors (ErnestHemingway, John Steinbeck, Herman Melville, and Gene Wolfe) that I aspire to be like, and have modled my writing style after.

[Shaggy]

I note the lack of Robert Jordan titles with interest.  (just kidding)