Author Topic: I want info about Goodkind/Brandon's comments  (Read 9501 times)

EUOL

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Re: I want info about Goodkind/Brandon's comments
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2007, 05:44:08 PM »
I'm 95% sure that is a joke.  Terry Goodkind's anti-fans can be quite...dramatic in their mockery of him. 

Again, I don't know that I support that kind of behavior, since it strays into treating Mr. Goodkind's fans with disrespect, which I don't think is right.  They enjoy his books, which is not surprising, since there are some very good things about those books.  My beef with them is my own, and relates to how he has treated other fantasy authors.
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Re: I want info about Goodkind/Brandon's comments
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2007, 08:21:05 PM »
I enjoy reading Terry Goodkind, but I always hesitate to recommend him. There's something that *still* hard for me to swallow about a medieval society trying to ban... fire.

achren99

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Re: I want info about Goodkind/Brandon's comments
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2007, 10:23:36 PM »
Wait a minute--does he really pretend to not have any idea who people are if his characters are compared to them?  Of course there are parallels between people and characters all the time in all books *rolls eyes*.  I skimmed the article quickly, but did he really say he did not know who Saul of Tarsus is?  Wikipedia says, "Goodkind was born in 1948 and raised in Omaha, Nebraska, where he also attended schooling in art and Catholic Catechism Instruction."  If he's Catholic shouldn't he know who Saul/Paul is???  Maybe (I hope) that isn't what he was claiming...

I think he also said in another interview he didn't know anything about Robert Jordan's books--he sure gets defensive quickly...

HANNIBALELANTRIAN

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Re: I want info about Goodkind/Brandon's comments
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2007, 11:04:24 PM »
Just so you know achren, Goodkind is not Catholic. He was raised catholic, yes, but he became an objectivist around the age of 20. And Objectivism is purely an atheistic philosophy.

As for this entire thread about Goodkind, I am actually quite the opposite of all who've posted so far. I do NOT think he disrespects his fans, in fact he is the only bestselling author who wrote back to an impressionable 14 year old kid(me) when I first started reading his books in 2003. He's very open and forthright with his fans, and I believe he is correct when he says that those who say they liked his first four books "But then the last seven were crap" are not fans, because they aren't. True fans don't turn on the author.

As for the whole "Fantasy? It's  not fantasy!" debate. I think that the author, all authors, have every right to say what genre they think their book is. After all, they did write it, so I think they've at least earned the right to name it what they would. That being said, I am a HUGE fantasy lover (could read anything that's even vaguely well written fantasy) and it doesn't bother me that TG is not, nor does it bother me that he loathes being pigeon-holed into a genre that he did not intend to be a part of.
 
Bottom line is this: As you can obviously tell, I am a Goodkind fan. Have been for the last 5 years. And in those last five years I've still read fantasy and still managed to avoid being offended by TG's dislike of fantasy. Not only that but reading his books has, in my mind made me a better person as it was the first series I had ever read with characters I could actually look up to and be inspired by, rather than the immoral characters that (admit it) seem to grace a lot of novels anymore. I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority here, but I'm not unused to it. I hope Mr. Goodkind keeps to his ways and does not allow critics or readers(there's a stark difference between "readers" and "fans") to sway him from his point of view.

Luke

P.S. Just so's you know, the answer is yes, that "Goodkind is God" forum is a trash trick made by detractors. TG fans like myself love the books and the author who wrote them, but trust me, that IS beyond us.


 
« Last Edit: December 13, 2007, 11:11:43 PM by HANNIBALELANTRIAN »

achren99

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Re: I want info about Goodkind/Brandon's comments
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2007, 11:54:52 PM »
I haven't read Goodkind, so I don't really care one way or the other if people love him or hate him.  I love reading, so if you love Goodkind and it makes you happy--good for you. :)

But I think even someone raised Catholic who went atheist would have heard of Paul--I mean--come on people!  Am I wrong? lol

Skar

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Re: I want info about Goodkind/Brandon's comments
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2007, 12:57:15 AM »
Achren: You are absolutely right.  He would know who Saul of Tarsus is.  Claiming otherwise is absurd.

Hannibalelantrian: I liked every one of Goodkind's books, I really enjoyed them.  The later ones were different than the earlier ones and I still enjoyed them, for different reasons even.  In some ways, I liked them more.  Thus I think  I can honestly say I'm a true fan. 

However, an author who writes about magical creatures like wisps and dragons(anciently anyway), magic swords, mother confessors, wizards, etc... who claims his books are not fantasy has a screw loose.  Thinking the guy is nuts when it comes to classifying his work doesn't disqualify me as a fan.

Goodkind's books take place in a fantastic setting, his conflicts are based on magic, incontrovertibly so.  His books are fantasy.  If he claims otherwise I will simply point out that he's nuts while I gleefully read his next book.
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Re: I want info about Goodkind/Brandon's comments
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2007, 03:05:51 AM »
Terry who?  Doesnt he write about that Richard guy that accidently saves the day at the end of each book? 

Seriously though, if a person reads, thats good.  I dont care what you read (for the most part) as long as you are reading.

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Errent

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Re: I want info about Goodkind/Brandon's comments
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2007, 04:11:00 AM »
Well, I shouldn't be surprised to see this thread res'd . . . but I am, and since Steve commented I'll throw my two cents in as well.

I remember enjoying Wizard's First Rule. I did feel that it was a bit derivative, but I felt there were some enjoyable and unique qualities. Goodkind can say whatever he wants about his work of course, there's no question about that--and readers can feel however they want towards them. If he wants to say his series is focused on the rights of plantlife, then I'm cool with that. I, and probably the rest of his readers, will get a kick from the fantasy.

However, I do have problems with his statements about fantasy. As negatively as his ex-fans may be, they aren't as critical as he is. He speaks of plot, character, and humanity as though they were things fantasy doesn't normally contain. To speak of an entire genre and the works within it in such a way is rather arrogant and presumptuous. To claim that he has the freedom of claiming his books are about greater things while the entire fantasy genre is as HE claims it to be? Utter foolishness and very illogical.

There are magical aspects in the series which the plot doesn't hinge upon of course . . . but even the plot of the first novel could not exist without magic. Richard rides on a Dragon under an enchantment of illusion to meet his friends . . . that is vital to the plot. So vital that it is forseen in a vision no less. But it apparently isn't vital enough to define the story. This leads to the age old rule of writing . . . if it isn't necessary to the story, then it shouldn't be in the story. If magic isn't vital to the series, then why is it there? If it is necessary (i.e. vital) to tell the story he wants to tell, then it is necessary (i.e. vital.) In general, I think Goodkind should probably take into account the Wizard's Fifth Rule: "Mind what people do, not only what they say, for deeds will betray a lie." Goodkind seems to be writing a fantasy, but claims not to . . . which should we believe? Again, illogical.

Then there is the change in the series . . . its there. There isn't a question. Some may like it, and that's fine. Some may not, that's fine too. Goodkind is writing for himself,  he can do what he wants. I personally, don't enjoy stories with that much gratuitous vulgarity . . . but I'm sure many readers don't mind it. The philosophical meandering is there too. That I don't mind as much . . . though it does distract me.

I'm glad he's brought so many fans into the fantasy genre, and that he's seen such success. I'm also thrilled to see that so many have enjoyed his stories. In that respect, good for him and even better for his fans. Awesome. I don't, however, agree with his viewpoints or attitude; and since they've become more prevalent in the series as it has waxed on, I've stopped reading. I'd encourage people to read Wizard's First Rule, even if just to be aware of Goodkind . . . but I'd recommend it with a caveat--be aware of Goodkind's stance, and how the series evolves.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 04:20:05 AM by Errent »
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Rain_Storm

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Re: I want info about Goodkind/Brandon's comments
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2007, 11:04:15 AM »
I can see why he doesn't want to be classified into a genre, identifying one part of a book doesn't really say what its about.
I don't like the concept of a genre anyway- books are books, if its well written it shouldn't matter!

He shouldn't have been putting down the fantasy genre though, its disrespectful to his fans. :(

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: I want info about Goodkind/Brandon's comments
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2007, 02:47:51 PM »
As for the whole "Fantasy? It's  not fantasy!" debate. I think that the author, all authors, have every right to say what genre they think their book is. After all, they did write it, so I think they've at least earned the right to name it what they would. That being said, I am a HUGE fantasy lover (could read anything that's even vaguely well written fantasy) and it doesn't bother me that TG is not, nor does it bother me that he loathes being pigeon-holed into a genre that he did not intend to be a part of.

the problem with that is that Fantasy is an objective category, with a definition. Saying something isn't fantasy doesnt make it not fantasy. A rose by any other name?
Like Gloria Naylor's Mama Day. It's fantasy. The woman is casting spells. Magic is going on. Sorry, it's fantasy.

That says nothing about how he treats people, but it does show that he's pulling stuff out of his butt. It's fantasy, if he's remotely educated, he should realize that since it's pretty much only fantasy elements, and that fantasy fans are it's biggest readers, and that it's marketed as a fantasy, well if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, you've got to at least consider the possibility that it's a duck, right?

apbadd

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Re: I want info about Goodkind/Brandon's comments
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2007, 06:24:25 PM »
I think it is wrong to say that people that haven't enjoyed the most recent SOT books are not fans.  I am a fan of the SOT series and have read the first 10 books.  However, I am not all that impressed with certian volumes in the series.  However, since I do mostly enjoy reading the books and have continued to read the series I would say I am a fan.

But I guess there is that portion that stopped reading the series when they thought it got bad and decided to call the follwoing novels crap.  I have ran into several people that feel that way with WOT as well.  With that in mind it is hard for me to understand how someone could turn so quickly on an author and say that story is crap.  I agree that at times authors can get carried away with the story, but that shouldn't detract from what had been written up to that point.  There is nothing to stop Wizard's First Rule and Faith of the Fallen from being among the best fantasy books in the past 15 years.

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: I want info about Goodkind/Brandon's comments
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2007, 06:45:40 PM »
There is nothing to stop Wizard's First Rule and Faith of the Fallen from being among the best fantasy books in the past 15 years.
Except for Goodkind claiming they're not fantasy
*giggles*

apbadd

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Re: I want info about Goodkind/Brandon's comments
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2007, 06:51:19 PM »
Touche.

You get the Stumps Me award for the day.

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: I want info about Goodkind/Brandon's comments
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2007, 07:29:41 PM »
:D

I just reread the article EUOL links to in this thread. Because I'm bored, mostly. But it reinfoced my opinion that EUOL's opinion is primarily right. Stuff like this:
Quote
Question: Annerinas: Will you, Mr. TG, actually ever go write a non-fiction book exploring fully your ideals and philosophy, getting it out of your system. So that it's not being presented in the next book at the expense of the actual story?

Answer. Translation: Will you please change that way you think and write, stop using your mind, stop being an individual and instead start writing books like every other hackneyed Tolkien clone on the fantasy shelves. Answer: NO

Granted, the question wasn't exactly informed or polite. But a gentleman, in public, wouldn't be such a jerk to someone who is even talking to him because they like his book.

again:
Quote
The assertion made by these detractors is a note wrapped around a brick thrown through the window. These people are not fans. There are hundreds if not thousands of fantasy books that fulfill their professed taste in books. Why would they continue to read books they claim are bad? Because they hate that my novels exists. Values arouse hatred in these people. Their goal is not to enjoy life, but to destroy that which is good -much like a school child who does not wish to study for a test and instead beats up a classmate who does well. These people hate what is good because it is good. Their lives are limited to loathing and indifference. It isn't that they want to read a good book, what they want is to make sure that you do not. Ignore them.
to rephrase without any exaggeration or distortion: "If you like some, but not all of my books, you are a hateful person."
What? If I read a book because I had liked a previous book, but didn't like this one, and I mention that to someone, suddenly my life is "limited to loathing and indifference." Arrogent. Rude. Mean-spirited. Self-important. Many other adjectives along the same vein.

Also stuff like this (speaking of Wizard's First Rule:
Quote
Was magic central to their story? No.
Uhm... everything that happens in any way in this book (almost) depends on magic. The history behind the reason the bad guy feels like he does. The reason why Richard is where he is. What prompts a sorceress to come looking for him. The way they escape. The thing the must escape THROUGH. The people he fights. What he fights them with. Every obstacle that he must overcome and what is done to overcome them are magic. The *title* itself! How is that not central? He either doesn't understand his work, or else he thinks so little of writers like him that he wants to naively think he's different so he's lying about it. Either answer isn't impressive.

His arrogence extends to editors as well:
Quote
What did my publisher insist be on the cover? A red dragon. Was a red dragon, per se, central to the story? No. But in the minds of unthinking individuals the existence of a red dragon in the story superseded all other aspects and defined the book, therefore it went on the cover.

So, my books were categorized according to one of the least important elements of their content - red dragons -at the expense of the most important element - human themes shared by every one of you.
His editor put the dragon on it so it would SELL. And I didn't realize that there was a genre on the market called "human themes shared by every one of you." Nor do I like the implication that putting something in fantasy implies that it can't have human themes.
THis statement also shows a severe misunderstanding of how marketing works -- but that's not necessarily a reflection on how he treats people.

He may say nice things to people. But it's undeniable that he also says rude and cruel things to people.

That doesn't mean his writing isn't good. I think EUOL's in his rights not to do things that bring money to Goodkind as an objection to his behavior. Possibly if all of us acted this way we would have a more friendly world. *shrug*. But I still listen to metallica, even though I think Lars is an inbred moron, and I still read Player Vs Player even though Scott has in the past done some very ill-thought and mean things (I have to admit that I haven't seen him do anything lately that was maddening, but then, I don't read any of his site other than the comic itself anymore). So I can continue to read Goodkind even though I think he's a massive tool. It doesn't make me "not a fan" -- nor does it earn me comparison to a class bully.

Incidentally, on a similar but unrelated note, Pillars of Creation does a wonderful job of undermining the view he keeps purporting that there's not objective good and evil, but that people think they're doing good. The heroine gets converted, because she sees that her previous views were outright wrong. There's a guy in there who has no view that he's doing the right thing. He just like hurting stuff. It makes for a good story, but it pulls some philosophical clout from his theories. But then, on a selfish note, I'm always happy with things that undermine objectivist views.

Shi

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Re: I want info about Goodkind/Brandon's comments
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2007, 11:35:23 AM »
Wow. You know, the interview(?) started off so normal, but then Goodkind's opinion of himself escalated until he made himself out to be a god.

I'm a bit in the minority here, too, though on a different viewpoint. I tried reading Wizards First Rule, but after the first one or two hundred pages I finally gave up. I thought it was boring, dry, and predictable. Not to mention the characters felt like paper cut outs... How was it he beathed life into a dead genre? To which he doesn't belonged, he claims, yet says he revived. Yeah...