The Hugos, 2006

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I'm going to out-nerd you and make it clear that you've enver read the golden/silver age Sandman stories -- Wesley Dodds and Dream aren't anything at all like each other. Except the "artifact" that looks like Mr. Dodd's mask.

Hence, Gaiman *did* create Sandman out of whole cloth, from scratch. Not a resurrection.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

I couldn't get very far into American Gods, myself.

Neil Gaiman is the closest thing SF fandom has to a rock star. And he's a very cool guy in person. He did an excellent job MCing the Hugos in Boston. Anytime his name is on a ballot, the other people are going to have a hard time competing.

[PixelFish]

There is a reference to Wesley Dodds (I'm pretty certain on this--it's the sleeping sickness issue, wherein he can't sleep, has insomnia, and takes to the streets) in the first Sandman arc. Yeah, they look nothing like each other, and Dream is waaay more powerful and interesting a character. But Neil did co-opt the name, if not the character.

[PixelFish]

Oh, yeah, here in the Sandman annotations:

ftp://theory.lcs.mit.edu/pub/people/wald/sandman/sandman.01

Page 18 panel 3:  Unity's child will become important later.
     Panel 4-6:  Wesley Dodds was the Golden Age Sandman.  The dreams are a
retcon.  The costume is correct; it is Dodds' first costume.  Later he will don
a purple and gold outfit and acquire a sidekick, Sandy.  Dodds will be referred
to again.

[Spriggan]

from
http://www.holycow.com/dreaming/lore/sandfaq1.html#1.7

[1.7] Question: To what extent is The Sandman based on the Golden or Kirby Sandman characters?
In "The Origin of the Comic You Are Now Holding" (Sandman #4) Neil Gaiman says his only early exposure to the Golden Age Sandman was a copy of Justice League America #47 where the Sandman took part in defeating Anti-Matter Man. The issue was part of a box of comics that mysteriously appeared (and later disappeared) when he was almost seven.

The Kirby Sandman made a very brief appearance in the first draft of the Black Orchid story, (He was suggested as a potential character for a dream sequence.) While he had read the 70s Sandman, Gaiman says that he was uncomfortable with the series. He did, however, mention a possible new treatment of the character to Karen Berger in September 1987. Several months later, Berger offered him a Sandman series under the condition that it had to be a new Sandman. The name stayed the same but the rest changed.

[Bookstore Guy]

well, congrats to Brandon for receiving the Scalzi (SCALZI!!!!!!!!) Award.  It was quite humorous when Dan and I got him to sign it!!

The "Companion" recieved the Hugo for Serenity.  The entire audience just about passed out.

As far as American Gods goes, I liked it a lot other than one of the short stories thrown in the middle of it.

Bookstore Guy (the artist formerly known as Diamante)

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I'm entirely unclear how co-opting the name is taking the character. There are at least 4 different Sandman characters through comics, 2 Captain Marvels, and so on. They're all very different.

Heck, if using the same name makes you ripping off, then we should just hit them all up. After all, comics didn't invent the name "sandman"

[Bookstore Guy]

When he finished, I turned to a friend sitting next to me and said, "Now that was a classy speech."

Thats exactly what I said to the guys sitting next to me.

He is totally trying to take over our minds!!!

[PixelFish]

I'm entirely unclear how co-opting the name is taking the character. There are at least 4 different Sandman characters through comics, 2 Captain Marvels, and so on. They're all very different.

Heck, if using the same name makes you ripping off, then we should just hit them all up. After all, comics didn't invent the name "sandman"

I'm not sure, maybe I'm misinterpretting you, but I think we may be arguing the same point from two different angles.

I never said that Neil was ripping off the old Sandman, nor do I think that new Sandman is anybody's creation but Neil's. I did say that he re-created the character, by which I meant, that he took an old name, made a character, and gave it a  brand new history. This history is tied in very minimally with the Golden Age Sandman. I may have stated that in a confusing manner though.

(Also, sorry to derail from Brandon's congrats and the topic of the Hugos.)

[EUOL]

Eh.  De-railing is very common around here, and this is a very interesting conversation, in my opinion.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

It does get at the very heart of creating, imo

My point of contention is that Nothing is borrowed from the golden age Sandman except the name. Nothing. He didn't "re-create," he created for the first time. There's no spin from the original at all, and the connection to the original isn't worth mentioning except to clear up confusion of names

[Skar]

So, I take it that if I want to read the thing by Gaiman that most people like the best I should read the Sandman comic book series?

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

actually, it wouldn't be a bad idea. If you dont' like American Gods *or* Sandman, you probably won't like much of anything he does.

You're more open minded than I am. If I don't like a book I'm not likely to try and read the same author again. I think there are too many out there to try to stick with one that's failed to deliver so far.  The only reason I ever plan to read more Jordan books is to work out why people like him so much. He's already failed too much to get me to try another on the basis of entertainment.

[PixelFish]

SuperE: Alright, it was semantically injudicious of me to stick to "re-create" when all I meant was there were Sandman before Gaiman's Sandman, and that you'd have to be daft and blind to confuse 'em all.

Skar: Sandman is the work that made him famous, yeah. At least among the comics crowd, but a lot of people kept handing it off to their non-comics reading friends, going, "Ya gotta read this." At least one of my girl friends has a crush on Dream because I made her borrow my graphic novels.

I have to admit when I first picked up Sandman, it was because Dave McKean was doing the covers. I read a small portion of the graphic novel of Preludes and Nocturnes, easily the most horror driven of the batch, I think, and it was not my cup of tea at first. And then I hit issue 7 or 8--SuperE and other fans will know which one I refer to, if I mention it's the one where Sandman's sister shows up. And that was it.

I read them very much out of order, but at the time I didn't have internet access, and Dragon's Keep in Provo (where I got my comics at the time) was having a hard time getting the graphic novels in. I was just too impatient, so I ended up reading the Kindly Ones (the penultimate arc, if you count the Wake as the last) in single issues about the time I got my hands on Season of Mists (third). This should totally have spoiled a lot of things for me, but instead, I just wanted to find out where the missing pieces of the story went. I don't particularly recommend this, but you may find your mileage varying over the series, because he does play with a lot of different themes and sub-genres.

[Fellfrosch]

American Gods is my vote for the best novel written in the past ten years. I'd probably go even further back than that. If you didn't like it, I'd recommend Sandman or Neverwhere, which are pretty similar to each other but vastly different from American Gods. Also, read Coraline to your boys, Skar--it will scare them, and they will love it.