Author Topic: Mistborn: Allomancy or Feruchemy? [ SPOILER ]  (Read 21848 times)

Seaoftrouble

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Re: Mistborn: Allomancy or Feruchemy? [ SPOILER ]
« Reply #120 on: January 18, 2010, 07:49:47 PM »
His fighting power predominately comes from being one of the original mistborn. And a duralimin fueled pewter mistborn is going to be a, to fast, agile, and resistant to "rip off their head" (pewter boost sense of balance and is easier to adjust to it's than boosting speed in feruchemy) so no duralimin tips the balance so far in a mistborns favor that their is no longer a competition. I mean a duralimin fueled coin push is faster than a normal bullet, and a bullet is faster than sound.



If you had enough health stored would it really matter if you get hit with a coin

For story line I would pick Allomancy for myself I would pick Feruchemy

Durillaim does boost ability to a new level but it is still a level (ceiling on the Ability ) just the same.  Anytime there is a ability without a defined ceiling like Feruchemy thats the ability I will chose every time from a gaming (RPG) perspective. However anything without a defined ceiling should not be available for PCs. (Sorry I slipped into gamer mode)      

 I love Allomancers because of their limitations not in spite of. Having to find interesting and creative ways to overcome obstacles with defined limitations makes them interesting and entertaining. If the Allomancers in the books had been all powerfully it would have made for a boring book. Allomancers not being all powerful is what makes them awesome. Convince me Allomancers can't be beet and I will lose interest in them in a heartbeat.  

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Shadmere

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Re: Mistborn: Allomancy or Feruchemy? [ SPOILER ]
« Reply #121 on: January 18, 2010, 08:03:35 PM »
I definitely think that a Feruchemist has the potential to be prepared enough to win a fight against nearly any Mistborn.

However, the sheer level of preparedness is ridiculous.  It's mentioned that while Feruchemy operates on nearly a 1:1 ratio while dealing with small enhancements, once you start tripling or quadrupling your attribute, it does not return as much as you stored.

So while it is probably possible for a Feruchemist to store enough speed to dodge duralumin-enhanced coin pushes, it may well take years for him to store that much speed up.  And then it's gone. 

So while a superbly well-prepared Feruchemist might be able to take a Mistborn in a fight, they'd be left unable to repeat that feat for years or more.

I'd still pick Feruchemy for myself, or if I knew I'd have to be in one big fight, five years from now.  But if I knew that I'd be getting in fights pretty often, Allomancy would probably be preferable.

Seaoftrouble

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Re: Mistborn: Allomancy or Feruchemy? [ SPOILER ]
« Reply #122 on: January 18, 2010, 08:04:16 PM »
On another note the following quote could in affect lead to a defined ceiling equivalent but its very vague.  

Quote from The Last Empire

“Yes, Master Marsh. However, Feruchemy gives decreasing returns—it takes more than the proportionate amount
of strength, for instance, to make yourself four times as strong as a regular man, as opposed to simply twice as strong".


At some point decreasing returns would be insurmountable and thus in affect create a ceiling for Feruchemy but what "more than the proportionate amount" equals I could only speculate.      
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Shadmere

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Re: Mistborn: Allomancy or Feruchemy? [ SPOILER ]
« Reply #123 on: January 18, 2010, 08:35:31 PM »
Yeah, that's exactly the quote I was referencing.  I could have sworn it was in the second book, though.  Ah well.  Stupid memory.  ::hits self in head::

That's almost scary how you looked that up.  :p 

Let's say someone stored a year of strength.  I think if one were to draw on that power to double your strength, it would last for nearly a year.  (Though that seems overpowered, so I could be wrong.)

However, if I were to quadruple my strength, it would last for significantly less than 6 months.  And if I were to multiply my strength by 8, it would last very significantly less than 3 months. 

Considering how easily Sazek uses up his metalminds during the siege of Luthandel, I think the returns diminish very quickly.  For however much he had stored up, he was able to expend nearly *all* in a few hours.

There may not be a theoretical ceiling to a Feruchemist's abilities (though it could be approaching a limit), but I think there's definitely a practical one.  You can only store so much. 

Patriotic Kaz

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Re: Mistborn: Allomancy or Feruchemy? [ SPOILER ]
« Reply #124 on: January 18, 2010, 08:54:54 PM »
Even without a ceiling Allomancy is stronger. I don't care how fast you can get (if you were to run over the sound barrier friction would kill you btw) b/c once you hit a certain speed with feruchemy you no longer have coordination (doesn't happen with pewter)... and you are moving so fast the fall it self would kill you. Also, how does storing health prevent a coin from going through your body? Last time i checked it heals you it doesn't make you invulnerable or thick-skinned? If someone hits you in the head game over period. And if you tap too much strength your muscles literally turn your skeletal structure too mush, not too mention your muscles already can handle more weight/ pressure than your tendons... so there are biological caps everywhere for a feruchemist they CAN'T compete in a fight with a mistborn.
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Shadmere

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Re: Mistborn: Allomancy or Feruchemy? [ SPOILER ]
« Reply #125 on: January 18, 2010, 09:13:31 PM »
I was assuming strength increased the strength of your bones, as well.  Otherwise, even the levels Sazed was using should have snapped his bones like twigs.

As far as friction goes, tapping health hard should be able to balance that out. 

Regardless, when the Feruchemist he'll be done for a few months, or even years.  The Allomancer can just chug some more metal and hop right back in.

Seaoftrouble

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Re: Mistborn: Allomancy or Feruchemy? [ SPOILER ]
« Reply #126 on: January 18, 2010, 09:47:55 PM »
Yeah, that's exactly the quote I was referencing.  I could have sworn it was in the second book, though.  Ah well.  Stupid memory.  ::hits self in head::

That's almost scary how you looked that up.  :p 

Let's say someone stored a year of strength.  I think if one were to draw on that power to double your strength, it would last for nearly a year.  (Though that seems overpowered, so I could be wrong.)

However, if I were to quadruple my strength, it would last for significantly less than 6 months.  And if I were to multiply my strength by 8, it would last very significantly less than 3 months. 

Considering how easily Sazek uses up his metalminds during the siege of Luthandel, I think the returns diminish very quickly.  For however much he had stored up, he was able to expend nearly *all* in a few hours.

There may not be a theoretical ceiling to a Feruchemist's abilities (though it could be approaching a limit), but I think there's definitely a practical one.  You can only store so much. 

The problem is more than a prepositional amount could be a inconsequential amount such as an additional .001 per 100% increase  or a ridiculous increase like x4 additional energy cost per additional level of use. I can't find a solid reference regarding the scale of the increase.     

It is just to vague to throw out solid numbers without presenting them as best guess

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« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 09:50:33 PM by Seaoftrouble »
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Shadmere

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Re: Mistborn: Allomancy or Feruchemy? [ SPOILER ]
« Reply #127 on: January 18, 2010, 09:59:13 PM »
I assume that if the difference was insignificant, then Sazed wouldn't have bothered bringing it up.  If you asked him, "Hey, will you be here in an hour?" he would probably not contradict you if he thought that he'd actually show up a few seconds after an hour.

I'm also drawing conclusions based how quickly Sazed used up his metalminds during the siege of Luthandel.  If it was proportional (or even anywhere close to proportional),  and he had a year of strength stored up, then even running at 256 times normal strength would give him nearly three days of power.   

douglas

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Re: Mistborn: Allomancy or Feruchemy? [ SPOILER ]
« Reply #128 on: January 18, 2010, 10:09:28 PM »
Even without a ceiling Allomancy is stronger. I don't care how fast you can get (if you were to run over the sound barrier friction would kill you btw) b/c once you hit a certain speed with feruchemy you no longer have coordination (doesn't happen with pewter)...
A) Do you have a reference for that?
B) Even if that is true, I believe tapping an equivalent amount of mental speed would compensate quite well.

if you were to run over the sound barrier friction would kill you btw
By producing lots of heat - which Feruchemy can store, preventing it from actually hurting you.  Additionally, it is not instant death so tapping health would allow you to heal it before dying.

and you are moving so fast the fall it self would kill you.
What fall?

Also, how does storing health prevent a coin from going through your body? Last time i checked it heals you it doesn't make you invulnerable or thick-skinned? If someone hits you in the head game over period.
Yes, it heals rather than making you invulnerable.  The healing is so fast (with sufficient power), however, that it might as well be invulnerability against anything that doesn't kill you instantly, and pretty much nothing short of physically separating your head from your body or destroying the brain entirely is going to do that.

And if you tap too much strength your muscles literally turn your skeletal structure too mush, not too mention your muscles already can handle more weight/ pressure than your tendons...
Got a reference?  If that were true, I'm fairly sure feruchemists would not be able to toss boulders around as Alendi observed, and Sazed would have snapped several bones in his fight with the Koloss.  Also, ISTR tapping weight makes your bones stronger (I think Sazed mentioned this in mental commentary while fighting the treasonous Kandra), so they can compensate for that.

so there are biological caps everywhere for a feruchemist they CAN'T compete in a fight with a mistborn.
I am almost completely certain every biological cap is either handled by the very same power it supposedly limits or can be dealt with by another feruchemical power.

Also, I remember Brandon himself stating, either on his blog or in the Q&A thread, that a well stocked feruchemist will beat a mistborn in single combat.  I don't have the time right now to dig up the quote, but I'm quite sure of it.

The limitation on feruchemy is not the maximum power use rate, but the difficulty of storing up power.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 10:11:38 PM by douglas »

Seaoftrouble

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Re: Mistborn: Allomancy or Feruchemy? [ SPOILER ]
« Reply #129 on: January 18, 2010, 10:50:56 PM »
I assume that if the difference was insignificant, then Sazed wouldn't have bothered bringing it up.  If you asked him, "Hey, will you be here in an hour?" he would probably not contradict you if he thought that he'd actually show up a few seconds after an hour.

I'm also drawing conclusions based how quickly Sazed used up his metalminds during the siege of Luthandel.  If it was proportional (or even anywhere close to proportional),  and he had a year of strength stored up, then even running at 256 times normal strength would give him nearly three days of power.   

I was just crying for solid numbers, and I figured to my shame that wording my reply that way would result in some quotes I might have missed being thrown my way.     
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Patriotic Kaz

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Re: Mistborn: Allomancy or Feruchemy? [ SPOILER ]
« Reply #130 on: January 18, 2010, 11:03:59 PM »
It's not the heat that you worry about it's the air! Come on! Everything i said is a basic understanding of science that you should have to graduate highschool (and i'm from the state that is ranked 46th in public education, that however doesn't include higher education). Air is matter so when you move through it you displace it and the faster you go the more air you displace, this process builds friction. Air resistance (which is the friction caused by air displacement) actually limits how fast you can fall, don't believe me, go jump out of a plane. If you were to go supersonic it would be like running into a never ending wall and the pressure would kill you move or less instantely. And different parts of your body take years to heal, according to my Genetics textbook nerve cells gennerally take 5 years, (and some organs/ bones only refill with scar tissue while others don't heal) a head shot would kill you period. And anyone who works out with any fitness guru or a bunch of football players will tell you that people who lift more than their tendons can take end up tearing their tendons which has nothing to do with muscular strength.

In FE Vin explains on her first pewter run why she can run so fast without falling

And if you try to balance strength with weight it takes more strength to balance the increasing weight
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douglas

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Re: Mistborn: Allomancy or Feruchemy? [ SPOILER ]
« Reply #131 on: January 18, 2010, 11:33:17 PM »
It's not the heat that you worry about it's the air! Come on! Everything i said is a basic understanding of science that you should have to graduate highschool (and i'm from the state that is ranked 46th in public education, that however doesn't include higher education). Air is matter so when you move through it you displace it and the faster you go the more air you displace, this process builds friction. Air resistance (which is the friction caused by air displacement) actually limits how fast you can fall, don't believe me, go jump out of a plane.
Do give me some credit, please.  I've graduated from college, and I know what I'm talking about.  Yes, air resistance slows you down, imposes a maximum gravity-powered falling speed, and is a form of friction.  It does not, except possibly at speeds very close to the speed of sound, cause any problem feruchemy cannot overcome with sufficient power.

Air is matter so when you move through it you displace it and the faster you go the more air you displace, this process builds friction. Air resistance (which is the friction caused by air displacement) actually limits how fast you can fall, don't believe me, go jump out of a plane.
And friction is primarily a problem due to the heat it generates.  The main concern in designing supersonic jet aircraft is not how to make it strong enough to survive the forces involved, but in how to dissipate the heat generated fast enough.

If you were to go supersonic it would be like running into a never ending wall and the pressure would kill you move or less instantely.
No, that's what happens at the speed of sound.  If you go faster than sound, you leave the "wall" behind.

Regardless, a feruchemist would not have to move supersonic in order to beat a mistborn.  All you need is enough speed to make aiming at you practically impossible, and to get to the mistborn before he can dodge.

And different parts of your body take years to heal, according to my Genetics textbook nerve cells gennerally take 5 years, (and some organs/ bones only refill with scar tissue while others don't heal) a head shot would kill you period.
If a headshot actually hits and gets through the skull to do major damage to the brain, then yes the feruchemist is dead.  As for speed of healing other things, consider a) Sazed's encounter with Marsh and how he handled the rings Marsh embedded in his belly, and b) Marsh after Vin got through with him just before ascending.  Following those examples, a year or two of stored health would be enough to heal almost anything not instantly fatal, I think.

And anyone who works out with any fitness guru or a bunch of football players will tell you that people who lift more than their tendons can take end up tearing their tendons which has nothing to do with muscular strength.
Ok.  What makes you think tapping a pewtermind doesn't increase tendon strength too?  Again, if this were as serious a problem as you seem to be advocating, I doubt the boulder-tossing feat described in Alendi's logbook or Sazed's fight against the Koloss would have been possible.

In FE Vin explains on her first pewter run why she can run so fast without falling
I'll grant you that tapping a pewtermind probably doesn't duplicate that effect.  Tapping mental speed should work to compensate.

And if you try to balance strength with weight it takes more strength to balance the increasing weight
I rather doubt the increased weight would take all of the increased strength, and you'd only need it during those short moments when you're exerting your strength.  When you're just moving around you don't need it, and when you're tearing something apart the increased weight is a lesser problem because you don't actually have to move your body very much.

Morderkaine

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Re: Mistborn: Allomancy or Feruchemy? [ SPOILER ]
« Reply #132 on: January 19, 2010, 03:06:13 AM »
First let me just say that we are all assuming, me included, that the physics of Cosmere are the same as those of our own universe and if they were to differ even slightly a lot, if not everything, that has been said becomes mute. While I'm at it the people of Scadrial, and likely all the worlds Brandon writes, do not have the same biology as us either.

Ok, that being said there is a limit to the speed at which a Feruchemist can travel but, it isn't a limitation of the Feruchemist, it's actually a limitation of their metalminds. That limit, 299 792 457.99999999... meters per second, infinitively close to, but not actually reaching the speed of light. Why? Relativity, that's why. An object that has mass cannot travel at, or beyond, the speed of light and, while the Feruchemist could theoretically store all their mass in a metalmind in order to travel at these speeds they would have to have massless metalminds, which cannot exist, in order to do this.

Seaoftrouble

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Re: Mistborn: Allomancy or Feruchemy? [ SPOILER ]
« Reply #133 on: January 19, 2010, 03:20:49 AM »
They don't have to go any faster than this

"I don't know," Marsh said, his voice coming out in a growl.
With a flash of power, Sazed released his ironmind and instead tapped steel,
increasing his speed again. He dropped the lamp, ducking to the side, moving more
quickly than Marsh could track


True he did burn up his reserves soon after this but the reserves in question were never meant for battle 
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 05:08:53 AM by Seaoftrouble »
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Patriotic Kaz

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Re: Mistborn: Allomancy or Feruchemy? [ SPOILER ]
« Reply #134 on: January 19, 2010, 05:26:34 AM »
It never states that tapping strength gives you any kind of physical resistance. It does however say burning pewter does, and since it never mentions it, it shouldn't be a stretch to say it doesn't. Now in regards to moving a boulder a human can flip a car to save themselves or their child, it usually involves several fractures and torn tendons but it has been done.


Note I've met stupid lawyers at fire scenes whom I wonder how they graduated anything a degree is not impressive especially when you can get really pointless majors and know no more than algebra and take volcanoe and other pointless science credits (my father took wine making as a chem class). I was annoyed b/c i did mention head shot and the effects of adrenaline are well known coupled with the effect that you share one of my most annoying vices, bold assumptions.
"Words are double edged blades. Only the great and the foolish play with knives." - Kaz the Buddah

"Take off your sandals, for you are posting on holy ground." -  Yahweh Kaz

"Chaos, go to your room!" - Momma Kaz