Author Topic: Warbreaker: Free Ebook  (Read 175818 times)

dawncawley

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #405 on: February 08, 2007, 06:51:42 PM »
Dreamking, I think that if Vivenna had really done everything that Vasher has accused her of to rush the war, then perhaps it was within what his orders were to kill her if the need arose. The king has already proven that he could, and did, send at least one of his children to be sacrificed, to the best of his knowledge. Plus, Vivenna running off the way she did would have appeared to the king to have been a betrayal. Especially if his spies told him she was working to start the war faster. Just a thought, and not one I am totally sure about, but I thought it would be a great twist :)

dreamking47

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #406 on: February 08, 2007, 06:57:47 PM »
This is the same king remember who couldn't bear to send Vivenna in the first place.

MattD
"It had blood in it.  That makes it a good metaphor." -- Tonk Fah, in EUOL's Warbreaker

DavidB

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #407 on: February 08, 2007, 07:36:01 PM »
Yeah, if Denth or Vasher are working for Vivenna's dad, then the part about using Vivenna to help forward their plans must be their own initiative, as Vivenna's dad would probably have commanded them to send her home so that he could give her a Stern Talking-To.

MasterBombadil - Humans are alive; humans have biochroma. I can't think of a sensible definition for "biochromatic entities" that excludes humans. (Actually, I thought that the snazzy thing about my table was that it includes all matter in the universe.)

Also -- Vasher says, "every living being is born with a certain BioChromatic Investiture.  This could also explain why Type Ones retain sentience". Maybe if you're born with biochroma, you're automatically sentient, and you don't need to keep the breath in order to stay alive. That means that in order to make Nightblood, someone just had to forge a sword out of previously-awakened steel. (It also means that if you were to take away all of Nightblood's breaths, it would still be alive.)

(So, you ask, what happens when Returned die? The same thing as when normal humans die, presumably.)

Horrifyingly, this implies that if someone were to cook using the methods I alluded to earlier, the result would be sentient food.

Also, I may be misremembering, but I think the command to awaken lifeless with just one breath is a closely guarded secret, so Jewels couldn't have awakened Clod herself. (Could you imagine if anyone could do that? People could -- sort of -- bring back their dear dead friends, relatives, loved ones, pet pigeons, whatever. Kids who got mad enough in the schoolyard and didn't understand enough about consequences would create lifelesses to beat on each other. Kids whose parents were rich enough to buy them a new breath when they used up the one they were born with would do it on a regular basis. I think if I wanted to take over Halladren, I'd try to find out how to awaken lifeless with one breath, publish the method to the general public, and just wait for the city to tear itself apart.)

Master Bombadil

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #408 on: February 09, 2007, 02:57:33 AM »
It was made pretty clear in the early chapters that the king of Idris does not want war, but believes it is inevitable.  It was also very plain that he could not have wanted Vivenna dead.

David,

All BioCromatic entities we have encountered so cannot survive without Breath.  Awaken objects are no longer Awakened when their Breath is removed; Returned die when they give up theirs.  Humans are different because they can give up Breath and go largely unaffected.

What is your definition of a BioCromatic entity?  From reading your table, and your comment in your last post, it seems that you are trying to say that 'BioCromatic entity' describes all matter.
I am not bragging.  I am understating.

firstRainbowRose

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #409 on: February 09, 2007, 04:15:20 AM »
I liked some of those theories, and am wondering how many times that happens...

One thing that's bugging me... if when you awaken something it drains all the color then why does everything turn gray?  Isn't that technically a color as well?  Couldn't you (if you knew how) awaken using an item that's already been turned gray because of awakening, or is it that when it turns "gray" it loses all possibility of magic pull?  Also, if you're wearing an all gray outfit, and it was naturally that way (wasn't dyed or anything) could you not use it to awaken?  Sorry, just something that struck me, and I was wondering about.
"The custom of royalty in referring to oneself is to naturally employ the royal 'we'. We are very happy, we are very sad, we are bored and suffer from ennui. For a royal prince there's no such word as 'me', It's always 'we'. So rightfully I should be two or three, don't you agree?"

dreamking47

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #410 on: February 09, 2007, 05:46:04 AM »
Master Bombadil, actually what is stated in the early chapters is that Idris feels that if war with Hallendren happens it must happen in the Winter, when the snow will work to their advantage.  It is Summer when the story begins and thus assuming a similar calendar to our world they must be into Fall by now -- so there is reason to think that the Idris king might indeed want to hasten the coming of the war, if he is sure one is inevitable, to be sure that it does happen in Winter.

Now, if I were a betting man I would not bet that "the Idris king is behind it all," even though it's a theory I suggested.  A simpler theory is more likely, Occam's Razor and all that.  But I don't think it's impossible (and do think it would make for a good story -- in some ways the ultimate lesson for Vivenna) so I'm keeping my mind open.  Re-reading version 2 of chapter 2 just now, I agree the king does not want war, but what strikes me is his mix of religious fervor with "anything for my kingdom" martyrdom.  Plus his own general says, "With a little more time, I should be able to bring the Natiees nomads to our cause, not to mention the dissidents in Hallandren itself" (emphasis added).

firstRainbowRose, yes gray is a color but it is an achromatic color (along with white and black) -- it lacks any degree of saturation with a hue.  I'm guessing it is that saturation which is drained out by Awakening, and yeah, I'd bet that something so drained couldn't then be used again (I think Vivenna experienced this herself in the last chapter).

MattD
« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 06:09:24 AM by dreamking47 »
"It had blood in it.  That makes it a good metaphor." -- Tonk Fah, in EUOL's Warbreaker

Karen

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #411 on: February 09, 2007, 06:45:09 AM »
Er, hi.  First time posting here, but I have to add my guesses.

First, I have no idea who is trying to start the war.  However, there's more than one minority group in the city.  One that has a lot of servants in the palace has already had one of their people make certain moves to interfere in the God king's marriage.  That same person also wasn't ready to deal with the God king being married.  Questions about rank and how Siri was to be treated would have meant nothing if war had started before the marriage - or because her father had chosen war rather than sending Vivenna.

Second, I'm wondering if Vasher isn't somehow the original Warbreaker. 

Third, I think I see how the breath has been passed on in the royal family.

The more complex a lifeless is, the more breaths went into his or her making.  Theoretically, with a nearly limitless supply of breaths, an awakener might be able to make a lifeless more like a returned.  The big question is how these breaths can be taken out, given the rules as I understand them. 

However, once that point is ignored, the rest begins to fall into place.  The time limit isn't on the king's life, it's on the life of the awakener who has to call back his breath before he dies.  I'm assuming he then passes it on to a successor who gives it to the new king - who, I assume, is murdered in his cradle so he can be awakened.

Actually, it might be better if the awakening could be done by several priests.  Perhaps the larger the number, the better.  That way, the deaths of a few priests before the breaths could be passed on would mean only a partial loss rather than a complete one.

In that case, the person pushing for war at this time is someone who understands that the king and the king's breaths are at their most vulnerable right now.  The big question is whether this is someone after the breaths or someone out to get rid of the king.  I'm guessing an enemy of both the countries we've seen.

Again, a third party seems the most likely to profit.  Siri's friends may not be any more trustworthy than Vivenna's.

Tjaeden

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #412 on: February 09, 2007, 03:45:31 PM »
A 3rd group!?   ...wow.  That would be terrific, kind of like the monks from Elantris.

Some interesting things, I'd like to comment on more, but alas, work calls!
Once I dreamt of death /
now it dreams of me,
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dreamking47

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #413 on: February 09, 2007, 05:28:34 PM »
Karen, welcome.  I had wondered to myself what happens to something Awakened when its Awakener dies, but hadn't connected it to the God King.  It's an interesting idea.  I don't know that "the more complex a lifeless is, the more breaths went into his or her making" is true, though -- we've learned that Lifeless can be Awoken relatively easily if you know how, since that's the secret on which rests Hallandren's power.

It seems there are both 3rd and 4th parties, if you will.  Bluefingers and the Pahn Kahl (sp?) people tried to prevent Siri from having a child, remember.  Tridees, the God King's priest, was the one pushing for it.  Which of them knows what?

Vasher does have that way of speaking that makes it seem like he was there during/after the Manywar, I agree.  Breaths do extend life, we're told.  Although his words could also just be scholarly arrogance.

Does anyone else remember how when Jewels first tells Denth that Vasher is in town, she says his name is "Tax" and that he's calling himself Vasher now as a joke?  The punchline should be interesting.

MattD
« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 05:50:55 PM by dreamking47 »
"It had blood in it.  That makes it a good metaphor." -- Tonk Fah, in EUOL's Warbreaker

dawncawley

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #414 on: February 09, 2007, 05:50:21 PM »
I don't think that I was being very clear in my first post about this, so let me see if I can get it right this time.

Yes, the Idrian couldn't send Vivenna, he loved her too much. But when we love someone that much, isn't their betrayal of us that much more painful? Do we not react more harshly than we may have before? For this reason, and this reason mainly, I don't think that the King of Idris should be ruled out as a possibility for Vasher's employer.

We have Vivenna leaving home just after he had sent his youngest daughter to slaughter, in his mind it was inevitable, so we know that he would be hurt by this. He has a spy network in place, only one of which did we ever know for sure but he does have one, so they would have told him that she had hooked up with the forces that were rushing and helping the war effort along. To her father these would appear as betrayals, he thinks she is smarter than to allow herself to be used. I don't think it outside the realm of possibility that he would want to stop her any way that he could. No, I don't think that the original order would have been to kill her, but I don't think that it would have been taken out of the scope of what her captor could do if they felt it was the only way to stop her.

I hope that explains my point on that a bit more clearly.

The rest of the theories that have been discussed recently all seem very interesting. I especially like the one about having a third or fourth faction.

DavidB

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #415 on: February 10, 2007, 04:02:57 AM »
The simplest way for Vasher (or Denth, for that matter) to be working for Vivenna's dad is if they simply didn't bother telling him that they knew where Vivenna was.

Quote
"No, no, never send interim reports," said Miles. "Only final ones. Interim reports tend to elicit orders. Which you must then either obey, or spend valuable time and energy evading, which you could be using to solve the problem."
(from Lois McMaster Bujold's Brothers in Arms

Matt, I don't think Occam's razor applies to fiction. More like the reverse,

Quote
Never ascribe to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by malice.

Okay, that's the reverse of Hanlon's razor, but whatever. Anything weird that happens is always part of an evil plot, and nobody ever dies unless they're murdered. Speaking of, if breath extends your lifespan and prevents you from getting sick, I wonder Who Killed Lemks?

...Obviously, the butler did it. (And that would be...uh...Scoot?)


Master Bombadil

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #416 on: February 10, 2007, 04:49:24 AM »
I'd just always assumed Denth had killed Lemks, likely without Lemks knowledge.  Any other ideas?
I am not bragging.  I am understating.

dawncawley

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #417 on: February 10, 2007, 10:14:04 AM »
I kind of had that thought too.

dreamking47

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #418 on: February 12, 2007, 04:38:56 AM »
Likewise; Denth implied to Vivenna that he had something to do with Lemks's death by calling her attention to how unnatural it was.

I still don't buy the Idris King as Vasher's employer idea because I don't see how the King could interpret Vivenna's actions as betrayals.  Misguided, perhaps, but 1) she was trying to damage the enemy of Idris and 2) as I mentioned a few posts previous, the Idris King may very well want war sooner rather than later to be sure it happens in winter.  But we shall see soon enough!

DavidB, I guess I'm having trouble adequately explaining any existing theory solely according to malice, which is why I'm still non-committal.  Too many puzzle pieces still unknown.

One more minor comment on the last chapter...

Quote
   “Aren’t you an Idrian?” Vasher asked, drawing her attention as he settled down.
   “Last I checked,” she replied.

"Last I checked" felt a little too contemporary when I read it, compared with the speech in the rest of the story.  (Also possibly too glib for Vivenna, although I understand that we're supposed to be seeing her act less stuffy now.)

MattD
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 04:50:28 AM by dreamking47 »
"It had blood in it.  That makes it a good metaphor." -- Tonk Fah, in EUOL's Warbreaker

Drerio

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #419 on: February 12, 2007, 05:28:07 AM »
I can't quite seem to remember, but would it follow that Drabs would be sick more often and live a shorter lives than a normal person? 

Also, I was wondering if Breath might actually be a spark of divinity given to humans when the entered this world...a source of warmth for the time they were away from God in the next.  In physics, we talk about different types of energy.  Kinetic, potential, etc.  Are breaths perhaps used as a source of potential energy?  A miracle waiting to happen?  In this way, the soul of the human could be separate from Breaths, the Breath of Austere, a piece of Him, given to each individual in life when they left His side and entered this world for a time.  In this way, they would not feel completely separated from him while they were away.  Also, his angels, the Returned, could be his emissaries on Earth.  Outpocketings from His reality for a given purpose.  Perhaps acting as His hands where He has none. 

Also, I am wondering about the nature of Vivenna's hair, and how that plays in.  It seems that if, which he has breaths, can continue to turn her hair to a given color, she could have additional power.  Since Awakening requires color for breaths to work, can she just hold her hair, awaken something, then grow more with the color?  Or can she add color to hair already drained of color?  (Physiologically, the second scenario would be significantly more difficult.)  Also, what makes the royal line so special?  Is her original Breath, the one she was born with, different from what most people have?  If this were true, anyone who gained her current stash of breaths would be able to do the hair thing.