Author Topic: Warbreaker: Free Ebook  (Read 172742 times)

dreamking47

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #360 on: January 25, 2007, 03:23:46 AM »
Thoughts

That was overall a very nice, meaty chapter.  Yes, some of it we guessed and that's satisfying, but I can't say how much of it I would have guessed had I been reading this as a book, over the span of hours rather than months.  And even having guessed some of it, it was still fun to read as a matter of story.  I think the part I always like the most in the stories of EUOL's that I've read are when the separate character storylines start to converge, seeing how the characters we've been spending so much time with act and react around each other.  It's sort of like when you introduce friends to each other.

Two things nagged at me:

- (Edit: as DavidB just mentioned...) For Vivenna to just accept that Vasher won't tell her what his goals are and to follow along anyway...I guess old habits may die hard for her, but after all that she's been through, I'm rather disappointed in her.  I'd expect her to react more in some way; her lack of reaction makes me think she hasn't really learned anything.  She's just being dragged around again, used as a pawn in someone else's plan.   (Edit: ...although unlike DavidB I'm not really concerned with whether Vasher may be "a bad guy," but more with Vivenna and her portrayal as someone who has grown and learned when she at heart is making the same mistakes.)

(I actually had a similar reaction to part of the last chapter: when Lightsong was trying to give away his Command words, it really negated a lot of the self-discovery he'd been doing in his previous chapters -- my reaction was, "no, hasn't he learned better by now!?!")

- Vivenna's sickness continues to obscure how much an effect not having Breath has on a person.  Jewels is a Drab, but Denth or Tonk Fah say that her surly demeanor is just her nature.  Now we're actually in Vivenna's shoes as a Drab, and she's being kind of...drab...but now we learn that she was sick at the same time, too.  It feels like a cumbersome way to obfuscate the moral significance of giving/taking Breath.

Speculation

I don't know if it really works, but it would be clever if Vivenna and Siri's father was the one behind the warmongering.  That would explain his certainty in the early chapters that war would happen; his thinking that sending a daughter would be a "sacrifice"; and after all, Hallendren was his family's kingdom before the Manywar, he has the most reason -- the only solid reason I think we've been presented with -- to want war.

Questions

Can someone without Breath (a Drab) sense the Breaths of someone else who has one or many?

If Breath is stored in an object (say a shawl) and that object is broken, ripped, etc., what happens to those Breaths?

MattD
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 03:46:38 AM by dreamking47 »
"It had blood in it.  That makes it a good metaphor." -- Tonk Fah, in EUOL's Warbreaker

Pterath

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #361 on: January 25, 2007, 04:25:09 AM »
Well, Brandon, you have redeemed Vivenna a bit, just a bit.  Though, as many have already said, it seems too much for her to accept what Vasher tells her so easily.  She still seems so gullible. Especially, since I might think she'd be just a bit jaded after all that has happened.  I know part of it must be to continue keeping Vasher's intentions veiled.  But, being clean and cared for does not make up for his original kidnapping and I would want to swallow the cud that he's feeding her no matter how much she wants to believe it.  Of course, he shows her by taking her to the men to speak to.  But up until that point she is too accepting.  If that is her nature it is going to get her killed.  It needs a "Prove it to me!" or "Why should I believe you?" or demanding an oath of honor if there is something comparable in this world.  Something for Vivenna to latch onto and show a little spine.  Just an inch, but something.

Quote
- When Vivenna says "But, the Idrians here in the slums--I’ve seen their strength.  I know that they are more wise in these areas than I am." Has she earned that knowledge?

Why not, she experienced it first hand trying to speak to them and not connecting because at that point she really did not understand them it took her time to figure it out.  Plus she lived on the streets and had time to bear witness there too and sees herself as week even in comparison to the girl she thinks might pick their pockets.   To her she is the fool and admits so freely to herself and others.  I think it shows the beginnings of real humility and lends her strength to make such an admission considering her position.  Okay so it gives her a little spine.  The girl needs more.

Quote
Speculation

I don't think it works, but it would be clever if Vivenna and Siri's father was the one behind the warmongering.  That would explain his certainty in the early chapters that war would happen; his thinking that sending a daughter would be a "sacrifice"; and after all, Hallendren was his family's kingdom before the Manywar, he has the most reason -- the only solid reason I think we've been presented with -- to want war.

Interesting, Daddy has been quite quiet and Brandon mentioned to me that this is 59 chapters long.  Much longer than had been predicted before and it make room for many more things to occur. Hmm....  I think that front needs to be heard from but.... I think the likelyhood that it is Blushweaver is stronger. For Blushweaver it is a powertrip, she obviously likes sewing deceit and is jocking for position to get those codes for the lifeless armies and she is right there in the thick of things and Vasher says that Denth's corrupted Lemks and that there was someone or some force at work in the Hallendren Gov't that wants this.  No doubt Daddy, Idrian King (forget his name), has gotten corrupt information because of it and would bring War to bear more quickly.  But again, it has been a long time since we have heard from him so that too lessens the likelyhood. 

• 
Quote
Vasher laughed a barking laugh, and Vivenna flushed.  Her hair--responding to her mood for the first time since her shock at seeing peprin dead--turned red.
    Peprin needs capitalized.

Ok I am tired. And I am not sure I can make sense any longer.

G'nite,
Kel

dreamking47

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #362 on: January 25, 2007, 04:53:20 AM »
Pterath,

I actually cut the first quote you refer to out of my message shortly after writing it...the sentences I mention rubbed me the wrong way when I read them, but after thinking about it a bit I can see interpretations that make more sense.  It's more a matter of street smarts than strength and wisdom.

The idea that the Idris King might be involved doesn't preclude Blushweaver also being involved.  Perhaps they are allied?  But the whole thing is just an idea based on vague impressions left by this chapter, the first time that war was presented as less than a certainty, and is not something that I fully believe myself.

MattD
"It had blood in it.  That makes it a good metaphor." -- Tonk Fah, in EUOL's Warbreaker

firstRainbowRose

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #363 on: January 25, 2007, 05:39:46 AM »
Actually, I thought about the king being involved before, but couldn't come up with good enough examples from the text to meantion it, so I let it lie... now that others are bring it up, it doesn't make me feel as crazy.

I personally think that Vivenna was too passive when she first saw Vasher.  I mean, if I were in her situation, having been treated as badly as I did the first time I was with him, my first reaction would be to cower in the corner, or else yell at him... and most definatly not trust him.  I would be like "why are you being so nice after last time?" and force him to explain last time...  The fact that she's basically ignoring that bugs me.
"The custom of royalty in referring to oneself is to naturally employ the royal 'we'. We are very happy, we are very sad, we are bored and suffer from ennui. For a royal prince there's no such word as 'me', It's always 'we'. So rightfully I should be two or three, don't you agree?"

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #364 on: January 25, 2007, 07:04:48 AM »
Man, you guys keep me honest.  I think I noticed this, and unconciously compensated for it in the next Vivenna chapter.  There's a line where she thinks "Now, I have to be careful not to trust this guy too much and get taken in the same way I did with Denth."  However, that doesn't fix the fact that she SHOULD have been thinking that in this chapter.  Thanks for the commentary.

You may be interested to know that I just rewrote the scene where Vivenna hears Clod's Command Phrase, going off of suggestions from you all.  Here is the new version, in case you are curious:  (This will be part of the 3.0 edit, which I should post sometime next week.)  This comes in chapter 35, I believe.

      Jewels worked quietly, ignoring Vivenna and pulling another stitch tight.  Clod’s guts--intestines, stomach, and the rest--lay on the floor beside him, carefully pulled out and arranged so that they could be stitched.  Jewels was working on the intestines at the moment, sewing with a thread and needle.
   It was gruesome.  And yet, it didn’t really affect Vivenna.  Not after the shock she’d had earlier.  They were in the safe house.  Tonk Fah had gone to scout the regular house to see if Peprin was all right.  Denth was downstairs, fetching something.
   Vivenna sat on the floor.  She’d put her skirt back on, and sat with legs pulled up against her chest.  Jewels continued to ignore Vivenna, working atop a sheet on the floor.  She was muttering to herself, still angry.
   “Stupid thing,” Jewels said under her breath.  “Can’t believe we let you get hurt like this just to protect her.”
   Hurt.  Did that even mean anything to a creature like Clod?  He was awake; she could see that his eyes were open.  What was the point of sewing up his insides?  Would they heal?  He didn’t need to eat.  Why bother with intestines?  Vivenna shivered, looking away.  She felt, in a way, as if her own insides had been ripped out.  Exposed.  Shown for the world to see.
   Vivenna closed her eyes.  Hours later, and she was still shaking from the terror of huddling in that alleyway, thinking that she’d soon be killed.  What had she proven to be, when finally threatened?  Modesty had meant nothing--she’d pulled of her skirt rather than let it trip her again.  Her hair had meant nothing--she’d ignored it as soon as the danger arrived.
   Her religion, apparently, meant nothing to her.  Not that she’d been able to use the Breath--she hadn’t even managed to commit blasphemy correctly.
   “I’m half tempted to just leave,” Jewels muttered.  “You and I.  Go away.”
   Clod began to shuffle, and Vivenna opened her eyes to see him trying to stand up, even though his insides were hanging out.
   Jewels swore.  “Sit back down,” she hissed, barely audible.  “Colors-cursed thing.  Howl of the sun.  Go inactive.  Howl of the sun.”
   Vivenna watched as Clod laid down, then stopped moving.  They might obey commands, she thought.  But they aren’t very smart.  It tried to walk out, obeying Jewels’ perceived Command to ‘go away.’  And, what was that nonsense Jewels had said about the sun?
   She heard footsteps on the stairs leading down to the cellar, and soon the door opened and Denth appeared.  He closed the door, then walked over and handed Jewels something that looked like a large wineskin.  The woman took it, then immediately turned back to her work.
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Master Bombadil

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #365 on: January 25, 2007, 07:41:48 AM »
Now that REALLY makes me think Clod is a more complex character than the typical lifeless, even if that doesn't say much.  I's also like to know who he was.

As far as the King of Idris being involved in trying to start the war, I think it is plain from early chapters that he does not want a war, only believes it to be inevitable.  Most of what he knows would be based on Lemks' reports, so he may have be being used as a pawn like Vivenna was.

About Vivenna...it's hard to say how a person would react in circumstances like that.  She has just spent the last week thinking about how incapable and worthless she is and how much damage she has just done; at this point she has no more idea what to do than she did when she was on the streets.  Making any sort of decision in that circumstance would be extremely difficult, and most would react by either refusing to do anything at all or letting someone else do their thinking for them.  The latter plan will not help with avoiding being used, but it is definitely easy.

I don't think anyone has mentioned the possibility that Vasher is a sort-of-good guy.  He is apparently against war and wholesale slaughter, but definitely does not have problems with fighting or small-scale slaughter.

Official Predictions of Master Bombadil (for what they're worth):

I am now quite certain that Vasher will teach Vivenna to use her breaths.

I am also now convinced that Susebron will use his breaths at the end of the book, likely to stop the war.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 07:46:40 AM by Master Bombadil »
I am not bragging.  I am understating.

dreamking47

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #366 on: January 25, 2007, 03:08:48 PM »
I like the rewritten scene -- it flows nicely, doesn't feel forced.

Oh, and I withdraw my first question...

Quote
Can someone without Breath (a Drab) sense the Breaths of someone else who has one or many?

...as it seems clear that the answer is "no."  Still curious about the second, mainly in an academic way.

MattD
"It had blood in it.  That makes it a good metaphor." -- Tonk Fah, in EUOL's Warbreaker

Pterath

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #367 on: January 25, 2007, 04:28:51 PM »
Sorry Matt,  I had my reply page open for a few hours and evidentally had done so before you edited it and I finally posted and did not look back until this morning.

As for Vivenna perhaps I want her to gather her wits and use them too much.  And she really isn't lacking in intelligence it is her seeming continued gullibility that rankles.  I mean how many times do you have to get smacked down before you 1 give up entirely or 2 finally stand up and say I am not doing this any more?  Whether that be being used because it seems that is what Vasher starts to do here much like Denth.  They are similar in their there actions but carry it out for different reasons. Or whether it is just her deciding she needs to be more critical in her thinking before making decisions.  It is obviously easier for Vasher to show than tell but she seems to tag at his heels a little too easily.  At the very least she should be thinking on it.

Nice changes in that scene Brandon.  Much more believable.

How can Clod be more complex than the typical lifeless?  We haven't seen many to compare to.  Clod just reacts to what he saw as a command from Jewels.  Once give a command they follow it until another is given.  Just like the squirrel.

Kel

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #368 on: January 25, 2007, 04:59:18 PM »
Pterath,

Actually, the squirrel is another thing that niggled at me–it seemed a rather smart squirrel.  Perhaps Vasher is good at picking squirrels.

A Drab can sense breaths in others, only it is more difficult.  Anyone can easily see the auras of the Returned, but to see that of someone with far fewer breaths requires either close examination or the heightened sense of color provided by BioCroma.

Vivenna SHOULD think more critically, but critical thinking is difficult and requires you to rely on your own wits.  Vivenna has lost much confidence and I don't think she trusts herself to make her own decisions.  Also, while Vasher is using her, he tells her so rather than hiding it (though that might only be because she knows he is).
I am not bragging.  I am understating.

dreamking47

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #369 on: January 25, 2007, 06:06:32 PM »
A Drab can sense breaths in others, only it is more difficult.  Anyone can easily see the auras of the Returned, but to see that of someone with far fewer breaths requires either close examination or the heightened sense of color provided by BioCroma.

Can they?  In the scene in this chapter where Vivenna regains her Breath, it is only then that she seems to perceive all the Breath that Vasher has himself.

Anyway, it's not an important question...I had remembered that Jewels (a Drab) had been the one to report to Denth that Vasher had a lot of Breath, but when I went back to re-read that scene, it was clear that Jewels had heard that he had a lot of Breath, it was not something she had seen herself.

Actually, the squirrel is another thing that niggled at me–it seemed a rather smart squirrel.  Perhaps Vasher is good at picking squirrels.

This was actually the most interesting thing to me about the previous Lightsong chapter, the way that the squirrel was able (to Llarimar's surprise) to carry out a complex set of instructions.  Did Vasher prepare it in some special way, does he have some secret knowledge?  Or do even the Returned and their priests not fully understand what Breath is and how it works?  Ever since the discussion we had about the magic system a few weeks ago, and in particular the person/object distinction, I've been mulling over exactly what Breath is in the back of my mind.  The fact that they may not have all the answers makes me feel better about the fact that I don't, either.

MattD
"It had blood in it.  That makes it a good metaphor." -- Tonk Fah, in EUOL's Warbreaker

dawncawley

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #370 on: January 25, 2007, 06:37:23 PM »
First, about Drabs being able to sense Breaths. I agree with the sentiment that they can not sense them. If I remember right, there is a part earlier on that has Jewels not being able to sense someone with a large number of Breaths. I don't know if I am remembering this correctly, but for some reason that is what I have in my head.

As for Vivenna's trust in Vasher. Personally, I didn't feel like she really had a whole lot of choices in the matter. Yes, I would have probably liked a bit of internal argument, but having been cared for by him, not beaten for eating his food, and having him allow her back her Breaths, (couldn't he have controlled her more easily without them), showed that even if he was to use her, it would not be by force. And he was a bit more honest and forthcoming as the chapter progressed. He definitely isn't what I would call chatty, but he does clue her in a bit.

Maybe I am just wanting him to be the "good guy" even if he does go about it in what normal people would consider to be the wrong way.

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #371 on: January 25, 2007, 07:16:56 PM »
The way people sense BioCromatic auras is by the brightening of colors around the person with the aura: fireworks are brighter around the returned, white splits into its components near Susebron, etc.

People with less noticeable auras (such as Vivenna now) have less noticeable auras that most people must look closely to see.  People with large numbers of Breaths are more able to see the colors, and can sense the changes caused by auras more easily.

I think what you are thinking about with Jewels is that she is not able to sense people watching or approaching her, i.e. she has to actually look at someone to know they're there, while people with Breath are able to sense others' presence.  Drabs are less aware of others.
I am not bragging.  I am understating.

U-Boat

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #372 on: January 26, 2007, 12:51:09 AM »
Hey EUOL, how many chapters are planned altogether?

Pterath

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #373 on: January 26, 2007, 01:10:02 AM »
In regards to the squirrel and the general intelligence of the lifeless, perhaps, it is the amount of breath that is put into the lifeless that aids in the creature's intelligence.  Complete supposition but I reread the first chapter  where Vasher is awakening the straw figure and the cloak, there are references right there for this to make sense.  If it takes fewer breaths to awaken something that has a *human* shape then can the Awakener control the number of breaths he puts into his Awakening?  

Quote
I'm glad you're liking Warbreaker.  The book is actually 59 chapters
long, so with 43 being up today, we're over 2/3 of the way done.
Vasher, from now on, takes a much larger role in the book.  I was afraid
to use him too much early on lest I spoil the mystery surrounding his
motives and the like.

That is what Brandon wrote in response to an e-mail I wrote him in December.

Kel

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Re: Warbreaker: Free Ebook
« Reply #374 on: January 26, 2007, 02:16:55 AM »
I think Brandon said somewhere that Awakeners can't control how much breath goes into something, only guess and chose what to awaken based on that.

As for Lifeless intelligence, we know that the squirrel's intelligence can't be attributed to having more Breaths, because Vasher only used one to awaken it.  The most probable explanation so far seems to be that it was a smarter than average squirrel while it was alive.

Speaking of squirrel minds, squirrels have practically no long-term memory.  Could this have be true of the Lifeless as well, and could Vasher have chosen to use a squirrel because it would not have any memories of him?  I don't have any idea whether a Lifeless even has a memory, but I can't help wondering.
I am not bragging.  I am understating.