Author Topic: Evil Storytime: The Winter King  (Read 7175 times)

Fellfrosch

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Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« on: June 17, 2003, 01:18:07 PM »
Use this thread for all discussions related to our current Evil Storytime book, The Winter King by Bernard Cornwell. If you're reading along at home, have the first sub-book read by Saturday.
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Fellfrosch

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Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2003, 05:50:20 PM »
I want to start this discussion by asking Saint (or anyone else who knows) to explain the traditional relationships and characters that Cornwell is playing with. Specifically, I want to know about Uther, Igraine, Morgan, Arthur, Mordred, Nimue, and Pellinore. I think I know some of it: Uther is Arthur and Morgan's dad, I think (who is Morgause? I always get her and Morgan confused, so I'm highly pleased that Cornwell only uses one of them). I know that Mordred is traditionally the illegitimate/incestuous son of Arthur and Morgan (right?), but in this story they have two and I'm wondering if there's a precedent for that.

So, somebody explain this to me. I understand Cornwell's version, but I want to how it coincides and differentiates from the "traditional" version.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2003, 05:51:30 PM by Fellfrosch »
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Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2003, 08:20:33 PM »
Not to interupt, but I thought that Arthur and Morgan were only half sibblings. Igraine was their mother but they had different fathers. Arhtur's was Uther and Morgan's was Duke of Tintagil. Maybe I'm wrong.
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Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2003, 12:29:15 AM »
Ok, this is where things get confusing. Igraine, Morgan, and Morgause are frequently conflated, expanded on, shaken, stirred, and served a la carte. I could go on and on referring to various "standards" of work, but even those aren't always terribly enlightening (Mallory, usually makes things confusing, for example, in his attempt to be comprehensive).

So, for simplicity, I'll summarize what The New Arthurian Encyclopedia says, which is hardly perfect, but is frequently used as an essential reference by Arthurian literary scholars and is more often than not looked at as authoritative.

Arthur (Artos, Artorius): It's hard to go into any detail on him without going into LOTS of detail. He's the King. He is rarely an active participant in much plot, and he has some historical basis, but hardly as a high king or emporer.  He is sometimes too young/childish/immature/inexperience, sometimes old and feeble. He rarely acts in anger, but often acts hastily. you can't often realistically place a "tragic flaw" on him convincingly.

Igraine (Yguerne, Igrayne): The wife of the Duke of Tintagel, seduced by Uther in disguise as her husband. The issue of her virtue is universally important in Arthurian lit. She is almost always either ignorant of uther's deception, or their relations begin when the Duke is dead (even if they don't know he's dead and it's only a moment or two after his last breath).

Mordred (Modred, Medraut): The Incestuous son of Arthur and his sister. This is our typical understanding, anyway. many time he is simply a nephew. It is his treachery that destroys Camelot. The treachery has a tendency to become more and more severe the later in the history of Arthurian lit you go. Mallory kind of crowns it by having him rape and/or force Guenevere to marry him, AFTER engineering a war between Arthur and his best friend Lancelot, and ending the whole cycle by killing his father/uncle.

Morgan (Morgaine): Often derived or even understood to be a Celtic deity. She is almost always a witch or a at least a pagan priestess. She hates Guenevere more than Arthur, but is certainly an enemy of Arthur. Conflicts surround the engineering of attempted assassinations of Arthur, and stealing Excaliber. In the last century, she is often Mordred's mother.

Morgause (morgawse, Margawse): Igraine's daughter, therefore Arthur's (half-)sister. When Mordred is Arthur's incestuous son, Morgause is *usually* the mother. She is married to King Lot (an opponent of Arthur) and the mother of Gawain, Agravain, Gaheris, and Gareth (3 of which are among Arthur's best knights ever). Mallory makes Morgause and Morgan sisters. often, these two are conflated or confused.

Nimue: Nimue is a largely recent usage as a prominant character, unless you count Vivianne's appearance, who she typically replaces. She's the nymph/sorceress/girl with whom Merlin falls in love. Sometimes it's reciprocated. Other times she just imprisons him in stone. Sometimes Nimue is conflated with the Lady of the Lake.

Pellinore: King of the Isles. He's also often the father of important knights of the round table. He's also involved in the rift between Arthur and Lancelot, killing Lot and being killed by Gawain. He breaks the sword Arthur drew from the stone and Merlin replaced it with Excaliber. He also chases the "Questing Beast" in many stories, starting with Mallory. The Questing Beast, in later stories, is very dragon likes, but it always makes a sound compared to the barking of (questing) of a large number of dogs. The word "questing" is often used in an anachronistic sense to mean "pursuing a quest." I personally like the sense (if I may editorialize) and use it that way.

Uther: Arthur's father. He's almost always blood-thirsty, lusty, and warlike. He either rapes Igraine (in disguise) or contrives to have her husband killed so he can marry her (or both).  Sometimes a nominal Christian (if religion is an issue) who ends a long series of feuding, fractious, and destructive Kings finally uniting England (but then throwing it back into chaos when he dies).

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Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2003, 12:32:34 AM »
Just to make clear: these are typical patterns. Individual Arthurian stories may make VAST changes. Also, some of the spellings are variable or even undemonstratable.

Also, Jeff has a right idea about Uther/Morgan/Arthur. As you can see from my comments, ONE of the right ideas, and the usual one in most recent arthurian lit.

Fellfrosch

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Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2003, 02:12:34 PM »
Cool. That answers a lot of questions. Let me lay out what I understand of Cornwell's version:

Uther is a staunchly Pagan king, very old, who's only son Mordred died in battle. He blames this death on his illegitimate son Arthur and banishes him, then marries Mordred's wife and has another son, the club-footed Mordred.

Nimue is a druid-in-training under Merlin's supervision. Morgan is Arthur's full sister, also a druid (or a witch, whatever). Pellinore is a raving lunatic in a cage. Igraine is in the future (ie, the frame story) as a queen who commissions the writing of Arthur's legend and adds a lot of embellishments after the fact. There's anothe Igraine, but I can't remember who she is.

We'll get to the other characters as we go, I guess.

I'd like to point out my single favorite thing about this book so far: it glosses over Arthur's childhood and gets right to the good stuff. I don't think I could have handled another Sword and the Stone.
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Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2003, 11:47:55 PM »
Quote
Uther is a staunchly Pagan king

That's pretty typical, but the rest is very atypical. It's hard to read this, as I have too many expectations. I suspect once I get into it I'll have an easier time. I keep confusing characters' traditional roles with the roles being established in this book.

Quote
Nimue is a druid-in-training under Merlin's supervision.

This is also fairly customary, even in the works where she imprisons him.

Quote
There's anothe Igraine, but I can't remember who she is.

She's Morgan's assistant. This is a relationship not too far off. In White Igraine, Morgan, and Morgause are witch sisters, for example.

Quote
I'd like to point out my single favorite thing about this book so far: it glosses over Arthur's childhood and gets right to the good stuff. I don't think I could have handled another Sword and the Stone.

Sword and the Stone was based on the first part of White's Once and Future.... It's pretty faithful, but very Disneyfied. White handles it much better and sets up some very interesting themes for the remainder of the novel. For another good account of Arthur's childhood, try Mary Stewart's series (which is actually more about Merlin than anyone else).

I was also going to say more about Arthur. You're probably all familiar with this, but he's very much a Christ figure. He's supposed to return one day in many stories, and set England straight. He's a classic example of someone who dreams bigger than humanity is capable of doing, but doesn't let that stop him, but we like to think that even though he failed, he'll get another chance and not fail this time.

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Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2003, 08:51:18 AM »
He already has.

The Duke of Wellington, who won the battle of waterloo - his name was... Arthur.

:)
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Fellfrosch

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Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2003, 11:50:53 PM »
oh yeah. that fixed EVERYTHING. That's why England never has any problems at all and everyone is united.

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Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2003, 10:25:20 AM »
Heh... Wellington was the Prime Minister who tried to stop voting rights for the middle and lower classes i recall. That sounds very feudal to me. And somehow i doubt a dark age King is a top-notch social engineer.
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Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2003, 05:31:12 PM »
Yes, I've erad Mary Stewart and TH White--that's why I was so glad that I didn't have to read the origin story again.
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Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2003, 10:05:54 AM »
I think the origin story is so oft repeated because it's one of the few Arthur stories that are about Arthur... as opposed to his knights. Off the top of my head, there are only three or four others: his chess game with Owain, his death, pulling the sword, the fight with accolan. And even many of these stories focus more on other characters. Arthur's "origin" focuses on Uther and Merlin, his education features Arthur, but in most tellings (besides White) it describes more of Merlin than Arthur. Arthur's death, but until he is actually skewered on Mordred's sword, we hear much more of Lancelot, Gwenevere, Gawain, and Mordred. Arthur is a fascinating character, but there are very few tales of HIS deeds as opposed to the deeds of his court (it's comparable, say, to Queen Elizabeth I, she did a couple notable things, like not get killed for plotting against her sister, which she claims not to have done in the first place; or her speech to the army before the battle in the English Channel -- which the army didn't actually participate in), but the more interesting things happen to other people during her reign, Shakespeare and Sir Francis Drake, to name a couple.

Anyway, that's why we hear so much of his childhood. because it's so revealing about his character, and it's one of the few actual legends featuring him.

Not that this means you can't still be bored with it.

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Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2003, 10:09:42 PM »
I've been thinking about this more as I've been reading the assignment. I'm disappointed that we don't have the conception story. Are we to assume a destiny? Did Merlin have a hand in it? What's going on with that? I keep thinking of it. Of course, judging from Morgan's behavior at the council, that might be his whole point: he isn't prophecies or destined or whatever. Just food for thought. I want Cornwell to address the issue of conception more, because it IS such an issue in Arthuriana. </whine>

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Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2003, 03:01:36 PM »
I'm very glad that he hasn't discussed conception, for precisely the reason that I stated before--it's refreshing to read a new perspective that looks at him without all of the traditional baggage. Cornwell takes great pains too paint Arthur as a man, no more and no less.

One aspect that I find very interesting, however, is the pairing of Merlin/Arthur and Nimue/Derfel. It adds a layer of epic-ness that I like. The most interesting part of it, however (at least from a writer's point of view) is the way he plays with this concept in the frame story. In the beginning, as Derfel introduces himself, he claims to have only one arm. Later (or earlier, chronologically), when he forms his bond with Nimue, she tells him that the scar on his hand binds him to her and that as long as he bears it he must serve her. My first thought upon reading that was--when and why does he lose his arm, and which one does he lose? Does he cut it off because Nimue asks something terrible of him, and he can't do it? There's an incredible amount of suspense tied up in that scar, and it might not be resolved until the end of the third book. I think it was a masterful move on Cornwell's part.

Anyway, we're in week two so we should be reading part 2, (amusingly titled "The Princess Bride"). This is the part where we really get to know Arthur, so I'm interested to see what you think.
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Re: Evil Storytime: The Winter King
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2003, 05:16:51 PM »
My thought with how Derfel lost his hand is that Sansum, the bishop Derfel is working for when he begins writing this story, for some reason saw that as a pagan thing and may have had it cut off or something. But thats just my two cents, which I shouldn't be allowed to throw since I'm only half-way done with part 1.
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