Author Topic: An attack on fantasy fiction  (Read 5169 times)

Kid_Kilowatt

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An attack on fantasy fiction
« on: September 12, 2002, 07:23:26 PM »
This essay by fantasy author China Mieville asserts the existence of foundational problems in the fantasy genre today:

http://www.bordersstores.com/features/feature.jsp?file=mieville2

An excerpt:

Quote
It is ironic that a fantastic literature - a literature of thinking the unthinkable and impossible - should have come to be defined by the endless recursion of its own clichés. With plots out of opera and fairy tales, and characters yanked out of a D&D manual, these books have become fat deposits in fantasy's sclerotic arteries. Standing between the shelves, I feel like Donald Pleasence in Fantastic Voyage: swimming in the vessels of a sick body, being driven mad by claustrophobia.


I found the link on Neil Gaiman's website.  Neil says he agrees with about 50% of what China says, and I tend to agree.  It's a challenging stance because it points the finger at Lewis and Tolkein directly instead of those who have followed them like David Eddings and Terry Brooks.  Someone also sent a pretty good response to the essay to Neil Gaiman's site, taking issue with Neil's implied support of China's views:

http://www.neilgaiman.com/journal/journal.asp  

Most people hereabouts are more familiar with the genre as a whole than I am.  What do you think?

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Re: An attack on fantasy fiction
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2002, 07:36:13 PM »
Ya well All I can say is he's probaly bitter about the fact that no one buys his books.  I've never heard of the guy.  True there is a lot of (as me and EUOL affectionaly call it) "TSR Crap" out there.  But bashing Tolkin and C.S. Lewis for the problems in fantasy novels is like saying Henry ford is personaly responsible for air pollution.  But the book Busness is just that a Busness (yes I know it's misspelled), and what people want to buy is what gets published.  "artsy" fantasy that isn't what you'd call true fantasy (ie Tolkenisk) dosen't sell that well.  This Guy will probaly never get to a best seller list and he's just venting over that fact that all others aren't a "enlightnend" as he.  I live with 42, trust me when I say that artists hate everything that's not theirs.
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Kid_Kilowatt

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Re: An attack on fantasy fiction
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2002, 07:55:38 PM »
To respond:

1) China Mieville is not some sucky nobody trying to vent his frustration at not being able to break into the industry.  His 2001 novel Predido Street Station received rave reviews, especially from fantasy authors (e.g. Michael Moorcock and Neil Gaiman).  It won the Arthur C. Clarke Award for best novel and was on Amazon.com's list of Best of 2001.  I think it won some other awards, but I don't have a list with me.  I haven't read anything he's written, but trust me when I say he's well known, well respected, and his novels have sold pretty well.

2) He's not bashing Lewis and Tolkein for simply creating something new (like Ford's development of the modern automobile) - he's objecting loudly to the implied policy of Tolkein and Lewis that fantasy is used to escape reality rather than subvert standard perceptions of reality.  There's a difference.  Lewis and Tolkein may have been the first authors of the 20th Century to really exploit the fantasy genre extensively, but that doesn't mean that they did it in the right way or set it off down the right road.  Mieville argues that they pointed fantasy in the wrong direction and that's why a lot of the fantasy written today is crap.

Does anyone have a better response to the editorial?  One that doesn't make rash presumptions completely unbased in fact and grossly misinterpret the arguments being made?

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Re: An attack on fantasy fiction
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2002, 08:14:58 PM »
I NEVER said that he wasn't a good writer or well respected by other authors.  Just because He's won awards dosen't mean he sells well. >:(   It's a Fact that daved Eddings' style and D&D books sell better than non hardcore fantasy that's why they get published more.  the ADVERAGE person likes those books better, thus more of them are published then the "problems" that he talks about.  No Publisher wants to stop publishing books that make them losts of money even if they are very gerneric.
Quote
Does anyone have a better response to the editorial?  One that doesn't make rash presumptions completely unbased in fact and grossly misinterpret the arguments being made?

you allwayse complaing that no one reads your posts fully, now you just did it to me. >:(  I'm not grossly misinterpreting the argument.  I'm just giving an explination as to why those books get made.  Tolkin and Lewis's books were "fantastic" (to take a word from his title) at the time. But now they're not.  The times are different both authors use basis from religoin (despite his arguments that he's not bitter about the books haveing some religious theam, he is) and folk lore.  this was before TV, and Movies so who is he to say that when they were being written that they didn't "subvert" perceptions.  But that's a stupid argument anyway, people read books to excape reality, just like TV and movies.  By useing that argument he'd have to say all books that are fiction are bad.  it be like makeing the argument that playing RPGs (like D&D) aren't to pretend that you are that character in a differnent enviroment that you are in, that's the purpose of books.
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Kid_Kilowatt

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Re: An attack on fantasy fiction
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2002, 10:52:38 PM »
For the record, Sprig, I never said that you said he wasn't a good writer - I was merely clarifying my views on the quality of his work because I hadn't done so in my original post.  However, several statements in your initial response imply that you believe that Mieville is bitter about not being successful and that he will never be successful.  I was trying to make the point that, for a new fantasy author on the scene, he has been remarkably successful.  He has received very good reviews and awards - he has also won the British Fantasy Award and was shortlisted for the Hugo and the World Fantasy Award - and (contrary to what you may believe) there is a definite correlation between this recognition and his book sales.  He has a publishing deal with Del Ray.  His two most recent releases are in the top 3,000 or so on Amazon's list of top sellers.  He's not in the top 100 like Robert Jordan, but I can't name many fantasy authors who could do that with their second or third novel.  For a quick comparison, Ill-Made Mute, considered a breakthrough successful first novel and featured with Mieville's Perdido Street Station on Amazon's Best of 2001 List, has an Amazon Sales Rank of 406,554 - nowhere in the same league.  I may not have exact sales figures on his work, but you can't make the assumption that his books do not sell because they aren't stupid enough to sell well.  People buy good books, too.

As for your accusation that I didn't read your post fully, that's not true.  I have to read your posts multiple times just to translate them into English.  I did imply that you had grossly misinterpreted the argument made by Mieville in his editorial, and here's the sentence in which you did that very thing:

Quote
But bashing Tolkin and C.S. Lewis for the problems in fantasy novels is like saying Henry ford is personaly responsible for air pollution.


As I stated in my previous post, this is an unfair comparison, showing that you are either unintentionally misinterpreting or maliciously misrepresenting what he said.  Here's why: Henry Ford never endorsed air pollution.  He never encouraged others to continue air pollution.  He is not the individual primarily responsible for the existence of air pollution in the world today.  Henry Ford did not initiate a movement to actively and enthusiastically pollute the air - the movement in that direction had started long before him.  In contrast, Mieville is arguing that Tolkien and Lewis endorsed the use of fantasy fiction SOLELY for escapist purposes.  He is saying that they are the individuals primarily responsible for the movement of using fantasy fiction as a vehicle of escapism without any substantive intellectual challenges, focusing only on the noble and good with clean-cut happy endings.

Personally, I don't really think he's right.  I think that there are plenty of substantive issues addressed in the work of Tolkien - people like Sprig here probably wonder how challenging works like Tolkien's can even be best sellers.  After all, that's not what the people want, right?   My point is this: blaming Tolkien and Lewis for bad fantasy fiction is NOTHING AT ALL like blaming Henry Ford for air pollution.  In your most recent post, Sprig, you say that you were just trying to explain why escapist fiction gets written.  I can't see how the Henry Ford comparison would really serve this purpose.  You have a valid point that a lot of people like purely escapist fiction, although I'd argue that you overstate the case, but your Henry Ford comparison was, is, and always shall be a gross misrepresentation of what Mieville was arguing in his editorial.

And Spriggan, how can you be so sure that Mieville is bitter toward Lewis and Tolkien for their religious background?  He is a big fan of Gene Wolfe and Tim Powers, both of whom prominently feature Christian themes and issues in their works.  Have you ever read any Gene Wolfe?  It's way more Christian-centric than Tolkien.  It's fairly plain that he takes issue with the optimism and lightheartedness - not the Christian themes - of the works of Lewis and Tolkien, and to write him off as an anti-Christian is completely uncalled for.  You have absolutely no basis for assuming that he is bitter either about Christianity or his (according to you) poor book sales.  If you can give a shred of evidence supporting either of these contentions - and I am very sure you can't - maybe people will give some credence to your arguments.  However, as long as you persist in making rash and unwarranted assumptions about a person you've never heard of, your judgments should remain OUTSIDE of forums of serious discussion and INSIDE your head.

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Re: An attack on fantasy fiction
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2002, 11:06:38 PM »
If you don't like me posting here then don't come.  but frankly you need to pull what ever is stuck up your butt out and relax.  You're takeing everything way to seriously.  The reasin why I don't bother looking up the info is that I DON't care. why waist your life looking up pointsless facts.  will this discussion ever make your life better, no.  there are so many better things to do than just jumping around the web looking up things for pointless arguments.  I'll post what I feel or think and if you don't like it than fine.  They're just my oppinions and opinions don't have to be fact based.  And just because they aren't fact based dosen't mean they're stupid or worthless.  True sometimes I'll post something without thinking or not explaning as you might.  You're smarter than me, I won't deny that, but one thing I know that will do me so much better in life then being able to argue is that I alwayse lisen to others no matter how dumb i think it is and I Respect that person's right to have thier views and express them.  And hearing multiple views helps you undersand even more. I don't mock them or critize them for not being articulate.  Being able to know how and why a person thinks is much more benaficial than being able to argue down everything they say.  You can choose to ignore me, or say I'm wrong.  But when you ridacule me or tell me I should shut up, that my opinions are dumb or don't matter, then I take it personaly.  this isn't some law school debate Kid you need to show the other people on this forum some respect even if you don't agree.  Go get your own site or move to Cuba if you don't want to respect others opinions.

Your the one makeing all these wild assumptions, not me.  If you actualy compair my statments to yours you'll see all the inconsisties in you argumetnts about my statements.  i didn't say half the things you thought I did,  and the fact that I half to explain things to you step by step proves that.

For my henery Ford comparison, you're reading way too much into it.  I used it to say that like Tolkin or Lewis he started it, but at the time no one knew about air pollution.  It was the later generations that realised it, abused it, but have yet to do anything about it.  The same with Tolkin and Lewis.  Sure they may have encourged others to write like they did (but they never forced anyone or forced the publishers to only publish a certain type), but at that time this argument or ever thinking (excaption vs subversion) probaly didn't exist.  if it did then I'm wrong.  But I'm not going to spend hours trying to find out if it did.

And as for me talking about a guy that I don't know about.  You ask people to read the artical and comment.  I read the articel and still stand by my opinion.  I'm not going to read through this guys life history for this and I highly doubt you have.  You can tell a lot about a person from how they write and the words they use, also look at his picture, you can tell things about him from that.  Just because he likes some other authours dosen't mean he dosen't have an adversion to religion (he is Atheast after all, and all Atheast I've heard about have some adversion to religion, that's usealy a reason that they are Atheast.)  And I never said he was anti-christain, i said a "little bitter" there is a BIG difference between those two statements.  What's not to say that he's a little bitter about those other authors you mentioned. Also he has problems with the morals in the books, those morals come from thier christian upbringing.  the others probaly don't spout moralism as much.  Morals come fundamentaly from religion (not to say that Atheasts don't have morals) but when you are stateing morals they come from your beleafs.  I garentee you that if those other authors had as much morality as tolkin or lewis this guy would have a beaf with them.  Personly I think there's something wrong a person who hates all happy endings.

And as for him being bitter about poor book sales, who wouldn't be.  You work hard, get a good book out and have lots of prase, and your book doesn't do well as it probaly should.  Who wouldn't be bitter.  I can't think of anyone who wouldn't be.  True that's not the only reason that he would write some of the things in the essay, but as any author or artist he's bitter about "lesser" quality of work selling better.  you can tell by the words he uses and how he chooses to present his arguments. I don't need to talk to the guy or do research, it's human nature.  How bitter he is is a different story, but to say I can't tell he's a little bitter is wrong.

Of course people by good books, if they didn't then he wouldn't be published.  The more generic books are fun, easy to read and thus sell better.  Just like movies.  High quality, intelectual movies get made but the fun, dumb movies make more money (there are exceptions of course).  I shouldn't have to be explaning all this to you.  I know you know this stuff, i just think you don't like my "simple" explanation.

I also never said he wouldn't be successful.  I just said he'd never get a best seller like jordan or Eddings.  That dosen't mean He isn't successful.  Just getting published means he done very well.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2002, 12:58:28 AM by Spriggan »
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Spriggan

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Re: An attack on fantasy fiction
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2002, 12:33:26 AM »
(ack message too long)

He has his own Ideas on what fantasy is and that's great but he hates anything that dosen't fit into his Ideal, that's bad.  I still think most of this essay was to get more attention for himself.  His book isn't mainstream, what better way to get yourself even better noticed then by trashing the norm. He's just an overly bitter person about something he shouldn't be.

As you can see It's the whole collection of my statemnts that make my opinion valied.  He's a little bitter about D&D stlye books being so popular, a little bitter about religion, his lashing out at Tolkin and Lewis.  anyone of these statments alone would be very weak, but together defining his pesonaliy a little(by his picture and the words in his essay), explaining how the markets work and walla....everything I said makes sence and isn't "rash misinterprataions".  But I shoudn't have to spend this much time and energy trying to make you realise what you allready know.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2002, 12:41:53 AM by Spriggan »
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Re: An attack on fantasy fiction
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2002, 12:52:50 AM »
Any yes I wrote that all by my self so Fell, EUOL, Mustard and 42 don't even think about who did you get to write it cracks ;)
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House of Mustard

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Re: An attack on fantasy fiction
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2002, 02:17:02 AM »
First, I don't read a lot of science fiction, and I don't want to get into this argument.  However, I would like to defend 'argument.'

Spriggan said:
Quote
You're takeing everything way to seriously.  The reasin why I don't bother looking up the info is that I DON't care. why waist your life looking up pointsless facts.  will this discussion ever make your life better, no.  there are so many better things to do than just jumping around the web looking up things for pointless arguments.  I'll post what I feel or think and if you don't like it than fine.  They're just my oppinions and opinions don't have to be fact based.  And just because they aren't fact based dosen't mean they're stupid or worthless.


As I'm sure you're all aware, I love to argue on the forum.  In fact, I'm sure that I irritate quite a few people when I won't concede defeat or let a topic die and I jump down somebody's throat over a little comment.  However, there is much to be said for arguing.

I argue because I like to see what people really think, and I like to see what I think.  Often I, as well as others on the forum, will take an opposing view just to see where it goes.  Often, I will learn things along the way.  For example, in the argument last month about the pledge of allegiance issue, my opinion of the whole thing radically changed because of evidence EUOL gave.  It was through this socratic, discussion-oriented method that I figured out more of what I truly felt about the topic.

Of course, I also figured out in that thread that making personal remarks isn't really called for, either.

As far as facts vs. opinions:  It reminds me of a Homer Simpson quote - "Don't give me facts.  You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true."  It's okay to have opinions.  I don't see, however,why an unsubstantiated opinion should carry any weight in a forum for discussion.  I agree with Spriggan that having an opinion that isn't based on fact doesn't make it worthless.  However, an opinion without facts behind it makes it worthless in an argument.  It would be like someone asking Columbus why he thought the world was round, and he responded: "It just is, okay?"  (Dumb example, I know.)

Apparently there are two different schools of thought on the forum.  I think the forum is a place where we can discuss ideas and try to learn things.  I think that, in a way, the discussion on the forum can "make your life better" (to quote Sprig).  After all, the great thinkers of history didn't come up with their ideas in a vacuum.  They discussed and argued.  How good is an opinion that can't stand up to a little arguing?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2002, 02:18:04 AM by House_of_Mustard »
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Re: An attack on fantasy fiction
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2002, 02:20:58 AM »
Wow.  That was a lot longer than I meant it to be.  Sorry for the interuption - you can go back to your fantasy argument now.  (Argument about fantasy, not an argument that is a fantasy -- a little clarification.   :)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2002, 02:22:26 AM by House_of_Mustard »
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42

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Re: An attack on fantasy fiction
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2002, 03:11:51 AM »
Well, I like to argue and I don't mind having my ideas taking a few hits.

First, I would like to say that Spriggan is right that artists tend to hate everything that's not thiers. It almost a survival mechanism. It's why so many artist are cynical, bitter and pessimistic. Just think about it, by giving creadance to an artists that has a different style/taste than you, you're taking business away from yourself. If they do well, then you won't do well. It's okay to validate the work of artists that have a simular style/taste because that should support your business. If they do well, you should do well. Sorry, that's just how the industry works.

Mieville is trying to protect his work. If he gets stereotyped as Tolkien or Lewis type writer, then his future endeavors could prove problematic. If he seperates himself from the mainstream, his chances for widespread success are a lot greater. Being able to standout means everything. Tolkien and Lewis were successful because when they wrote they stood out from the mainstream.

Mieville knows he needs to stand out and if he gets labled as a fantsy writer, people think he is just like Tolkien or Lewis and therefor are more likely to ignore him and his work.

Dave Wolverton talked about this one day in class. He said that there is a rash of Tolkien/Lewis bashing right now because it is too difficult to stand-out in the industry because of their influence. Mieville is right that the public tends to assume that ALL fantasy is like Tolkien. Tolkien set the ground work for the fantasy genre as it is today. However, things have to change if they are going to last. What Mieville advocates is that it is time for the paradigms surrounding the fantasy genre to change to be more inclusive of different possibilities. He feels that adherence to the Tolkien foundation has stagnated to genre.

As for the escapist theory. Well, duh, of course people read for escapism. However, it not the only reason that they will read. Someone can start reading something for an escapist reason and then change their reasoning for reading as they are reading the novel. Mieville seems smart enough to understand this and is therefor trying to find other reasons to keep people reading his books besides pure escapism. Of course, attitudes towards escapism are always changing. Sometimes escapism is a perfectly acceptable reasoning, other times it is not. For example, recently art has been VERY cynical and sarcastic with a "nothing is sacred" attitude...until 911. Now there is still cynisism, but a amount of sincerity and sentimentality is starting to emerge. Escapism has become more acceptable as of the past year.

I think Mieville attack on escapism is a trivial matter. It simply doesn't matter if someone reads a book for escapist reasons. What they take with them from reading the book is the important issue.
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Re: An attack on fantasy fiction
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2002, 10:21:03 AM »
Ok just to get it out of the way them I'm done with the "i hate arguing" thing.  
Quote
your judgments should remain OUTSIDE of forums of serious discussion and INSIDE your head.

The only reason I posted that rant about opinions isn't because Kid took shots at my Ideas, It was because he told me not to express them if they weren't what he wanted to here.
And by this I mean I didn't express my opinions to the factual level he wanted.  I know you guys like to argue, and that's fine.  It can be fun, and intellectualy stimulating. Me and my friends don't debate at the intensity that a lot of you like to, so it did take me a while to get use to it. But DON'T tell people not to express their opinions like Kid did.  That offended me, a lot.  Pick at my thoughts all you want, but do it as 42 says: "by saying what's wrong with the statement and not just saying it's stupid".  Now kid did that for the most part with a little more cynacism that I would have liked, but that's fine.  But DON'T say that I shouldn't express my Ideas.  That is what the rant is about not that "argueing is stupid".

Quote
Of course, I also figured out in that thread that making personal remarks isn't really called for, either.

i did as well.  I feel bad about some of the things I said about others is past posts as well.  And I realy think that my reply to Kid wasn't rude or in the heat of the moment like I sometimes do.  I feel that I suffencently explained (in the freakn' long post) where I came by my opinions.  if you don't agree with my methods or thought process fine, I know I don't think or percieve things the way anyone elso here does.  That why it's important to listen to everyone's thoughts.  I could have cursed Kid out like I have others before, but i didn't.  I choose to explain my thinking a little so he and others know how I comeby some of my opinions.  Sure they're less logical and more emotional, but that's how I make my inital judgements by the feeling conveied.  I think my initial observaions in to the feeling of the essay are just as important as what Kid and 42 have said.  our methods are different and so are our opinions but none are dumb.  Sure my initial post wasn't as detailed or serious and my 3rd, but the statements made in them are the same.

there now that that is over (and much longer then needed to be) with I have to personally say that I agree whole heartly with 42.  I actualy had know Idea that there was a trend on the tolkin bashing.  I also agree on the trying to seperate from the 'norm' of fantasy.  My view on it is more cynical then 42's but I see it more as a money modivaded move and a lets say something to get my name out there then lets try to define myself as something else.  the reason is that unless people are trying to consently compair him to Tolkin he shouldn'd need to be saying 'hey I'm different'.

and as for people reading to escape...sure there are books that aren't for that.  But generaly Fiction is excapision.  if you want to only learn something then read a teck manual.  sure you can be reading a book that takes you to another place and in the course say "hey he right" about some social commentary.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2002, 10:48:31 AM by Spriggan »
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Re: An attack on fantasy fiction
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2002, 03:05:50 PM »
First, I'll address the meta-argument (argument about arguments) that is taking place here, and which I feel somewhat responsible for, if only to close the door on it so we can get on to the purpose that this thread was started for.  Once you retreat to the standard of "Well, it's my opinion and therefore sacrosanct - I have a right to express my opinion and you can't stop me," you're basically screwed.  Why?  Because, once you do, you can't defend yourself against anything.  If I say, "Keep stupid opinions out of the forums," you can't tell me I don't have a right to say it.  Why not?  Because IT'S MY OPINION.  Once you say that opinions have an intrinsic right to be expressed, you can no longer get mad at anyone for anything they say - they're opinion is sacred after all.  If your opinion is that an author is bitter and unsuccessful, you can say that even if there is NO EVIDENCE OF THAT WHATSOEVER.  If you think that someone "needs to pull what ever is stuck up your butt out and relax," you can say that (even though it is a personal attack that could hurt someone's feelings) because it's YOUR OPINION.  Even though it's ALSO AN INSULT.  That's why I try to retreat to some basis in fact or reality whenever possible.  Once you say that any groundless or stupid opinion has a right to be expressed, you open the door for all kinds of flaming and mud-slinging and Neanderthal grunting.  But that's where we are now - Spriggan has said that his opinion (which has no basis in fact or reality) is sacred.  Therefore, all opinions are now sacred.  Feel free to say whatever you want - no one can stop you because IT'S YOUR OPINION.

Now, I'd like to get to the original question I posed in this thread because someone FINALLY touched on it (thank you, 42).  I wasn't asking why Mieville wrote his editorial - I appreciate everyone postulating on his motives, though.  Very interesting opinions you all have on that matter - although I have to say he probably wrote the article because Borders Magazine asked him to write something for them and he chose to write on a subject he felt somewhat passionate about (if that's the case, it can hardly be deemed a desperate plea for attention).  

The question I asked was whether Mieville was right.  His thesis is this: Tolkien and Lewis proactively discouraged the use of fantasy as a vehicle for substantive literary discourse, espousing the reservation of the genre for PURE escapism.  They manifested this belief in their work, which was steeped in optimism, nobility, and simplistic black-and-white divisions of good and evil.  So far, everyone has dismissed this argument offhand, but I think he may be on to something here.  Obviously, Tolkien and Lewis were not conscious of their importance in establishing a new kind of fiction, but nonetheless they started something.  My question is this - Could it have started differently?  Could things have gone differently, resulting in the perception of fantasy as a more serious genre, a la magic realism or feminist fiction?  What if Mervyn Peake's darker and more ethically murky Gormenghast series had become the definitive fantasy series instead of the Lord of the Rings?  Would things be different today?

Personally, I think that the genre wouldn't exist as it does today if it had taken a higher road.  Without the purely escapist appeal, the first fantasy copiers (I'm looking at you, Terry Brooks) would not have sold well and the genre would have stagnated.  You could argue that there would not have been any copiers if the original works hadn't been so pure and noble, and the original works wouldn't have started any movement toward a fantasy genre at all.  I think the world is better for the existence of Tolkien and Lewis's works, even if it does mean you have to sift through shelf after shelf of crappy fantasy novels before finding a good one.  Without Lord of the Rings and Narnia, maybe there wouldn't be a single fantasy novel on the shelf to be found.

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Re: An attack on fantasy fiction
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2002, 01:39:42 AM »
Ah, what a delightful topic.  I find this concept very interesting, as well I should, since it is my intention to publish in fantasy.

His article makes a surprising number of good points.  I have noticed that in fantasy, there is as much an internal division between 'literary' works and 'non-literary works' as there is in mainstream fiction.  It's actually an interesting subset, since fantasy (along with SF) is currently engaged in a lengthy battle for relevancy when regarded by the mainstream fiction world.  Many in mainstream fiction tend to dismiss anything genre-related.  SF and Fantasy, however, argue that they can be literary, and try and remove themselves as much as possible from their cousins romance, western, and mystery.

SF has been far more successful in its argument than fantasy.  Fantasy's main problem is the one that Mieville explains in the beginning of his essay--the fact that it is caught in so many redundancies.  Re-exploration of the heroic ideal has become the overused weed of fantasy writers, used because its easy, and because it sells so well (as Sprig pointed out.)

The literary fantasy writers get annoyed by this, as they have right to be.  I postulate that it might go back to how difficult it is to write a successful fantasy book without falling into the stereotypes.  I've tried it myself, and found that the book I wrote that used the heroic ideals was far better received than the one I considered original.  In addition, the bulk of the material on the shelves keeps the minority of the clever fantasy from being noticed by the mainstream world.

However, both of these problems are something of an exaggeration.  I have met many sf and fantasy editors.  They seem to genuinely like original, interesting work.  They come back to one simple theme--if you write a good book, it will sell.  I think fantasy is in a transition period.  In the decades following tolkien, Fantasy and SF were regulated to the pulps, where their escapist natures were a necessary part of their ability to sell.  This 'Lifeline' for writers was a necessary part of their stories.  They needed to include these ideas, and play off of Tolkien and Lewis because the world just wasn't ready to support serious professional fantasy yet.  (Tolkien and Lewis were both professors, and didn't have to live off the sales of their books.)

A generation passed, and the Fantasy 'renaissance' came into existence.  This began with people like Silverburg, McCaffery, and (yes) Eddings, who were willing to explore a little bit more.  Look at Eddings, for instance.  No elves, no dwarves.  Yes, there was the same heroic plot, but many of the cliches were getting abandoned.  

Yet, at this same time, it was very hard to abandon this old feeling of what fantasy was.  The 'New Pulps' of TSR and its clones began churning out fantasy reminiscent of the old days, and as the younger generation--the first ones to really experience fantasy as a pervasive professional genre--read, they became indoctrinated.

Only now are we beginning to get tired of these ideas.  The newest fantasy is becoming more and more exploratory, and is being more and more well-received.  Just as SF escaped its buck-Rogers/Asmiov Robots trend, so Fantasy will overcome its roots--it just may take a few more decades.


Now, as for the core of the escapist argument, I don't believe it holds very well.  Arguing that Tolkien and Lewis weren't interested in other issues implies that things such as exploring culture, history, and folklore are not worthy literary goals.  In the very least, Tolkien's work is an excellent look at mythology and how people use and create it.  There is also the issue of the ring and Frodo's growing dependence upon it.  Yes, there is a neat tie-up of an ending, but reading is as much about the experience as it is about the conclusion.

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Re: An attack on fantasy fiction
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2003, 02:11:18 AM »
There was an e-zine put out in the early/mid 90s called Cheap Truth, written by Bruce Sterling and William Gibson anonymously.  It was basically them, as new sci-fi writers, taking very well aimed shots at the current sci-fi books and authors - Heinlein etc.  China's article reminded me a bit of that, though they were less serious about.  I think Sterling's site on well.com still has links to those old zines, but 10 years later they aren't very relevant.