Author Topic: Renaissance Magazine  (Read 3794 times)

Mad Dr Jeffe

  • Level 74
  • *
  • Posts: 9162
  • Fell Points: 7
  • Devils Advocate General
    • View Profile
Re: Renaissance Magazine
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2003, 04:47:55 PM »
No one ever said they were.
Lenin was a communist, specifically a Bolshevick Communist while Stalin was a different organ altogether. I dont like Stalin as much as I dont like Hitler. That little Georgian was cut from the same cloth.
Its an automated robot. Based on Science!

Entsuropi

  • Level 60
  • *
  • Posts: 5033
  • Fell Points: 0
  • =^_^= Captain of the highschool Daydreaming team
    • View Profile
Re: Renaissance Magazine
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2003, 05:52:20 PM »
Stalin was, well. communist. Fascism is really just communism without the economics. Lenin was a conquer with an ideologly is about all i know, but Stalin? If there is a hell, which i don't really think likely but i'll make an exception in this case, i hope that little scumbag is burning down there.
If you're ever in an argument and Entropy winds up looking staid and temperate in comparison, it might be time to cut your losses and start a new thread about something else :)

Fellfrosch

House of Mustard

  • Level 44
  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • Fell Points: 3
  • Firstborn Unicorn
    • View Profile
    • robisonwells.com
Re: Renaissance Magazine
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2003, 03:28:51 PM »
Holy crap.  I forgot to check this thread and, when I finally did, I nearly choked on my smothered burrito at all the ignorance running rampant.

The term Fascism was originally thought up by Mussolini (it comes from the latin: 'fasces' - a symbol for power in Ancient Rome).  Mussolini describes the ideology thus (and when you read this, think about the gross claims made by both Gemm and Entropy):

"Facism...believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace.  War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have courage to meet it.

"Fascism is the complete opposite of Marxian Socialism...  Fascism combats the whole complex system of democratic ideology...  Fascism denies that the majority, by the simple fact that it is a majority, can direct human society."

Now kids, how does that even come close to communism?  Communism (the doctrine of Lenin and Stalin) believes in the complete withering away of the state, until people live in complete equality.  On the other hand, Fascism believes in the 'natural aristocracy', where some people, by their nature, are superior to others and rise to positions of power.

Never forget that Dictatorship is not synonomous with Fascism.  Stalin was a war monger and a mass murderer, as was Hitler, but they did not carry out their actions because of similar ideologies.  
« Last Edit: October 29, 2003, 03:30:03 PM by House_of_Mustard »
I got soul, but I'm not a soldier.

www.robisonwells.com

Mad Dr Jeffe

  • Level 74
  • *
  • Posts: 9162
  • Fell Points: 7
  • Devils Advocate General
    • View Profile
Re: Renaissance Magazine
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2003, 07:29:40 PM »
On the whole I agree with you mustard, but for a moment let me play devils advocate.
Stalin espoused being a communist, but the system he brought into being for Russia functioned more like a fascist regime, party members got more rights than other citizens, inner party members got more rights than party members, and anyone not native Russian got the short end of the stick. Georgians, latvians, Lithuanians.
Under the stalinist system the majority was denied any say in government, Leninism may have involved the withering away of the state, but stalin brutally changed it using much the same methods as the Spanish, Germans, and Italian fascists. Churches were burned, intellectuals rounded up, dissidents jailed or killed, and anyone who disagreed with "Big Brother" was made to disappear. Stalin effectively turned his state from the road of Communism to one strikingly similar to fascism, at least outwardly.

Still since Im playing DA I know that the USSR was nominally communist under Stalins regime.
Its an automated robot. Based on Science!

Entsuropi

  • Level 60
  • *
  • Posts: 5033
  • Fell Points: 0
  • =^_^= Captain of the highschool Daydreaming team
    • View Profile
Re: Renaissance Magazine
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2003, 07:52:31 PM »
I hate it when mustard does that. Acts all intellectual and whatnot.

I deny all knowledge of any posts i may have allegedly made.

Also, I promise never to swear again.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2003, 07:56:19 PM by Fellfrosch »
If you're ever in an argument and Entropy winds up looking staid and temperate in comparison, it might be time to cut your losses and start a new thread about something else :)

Fellfrosch

House of Mustard

  • Level 44
  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • Fell Points: 3
  • Firstborn Unicorn
    • View Profile
    • robisonwells.com
Re: Renaissance Magazine
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2003, 11:38:30 AM »
Dr Jeffe, you bring up some good points (and I know you're just playing devil's advocate), but you're wrong.

To repeat what I said before: Fascism is not the same thing as Dictatorship.  While the methods may be the same (for Hitler and Stalin), the motivation was clearly different.

Communism believes that dictatorship is necessary to purge society of all the evils of capitalism, before pure peace and equality can be acheived.  The Communist Manifesto set forth ten stages to make the transistion from Capitalism to Communism:

1.  The overthrow of the capitalist state in a violent revolution.
2.  Dictatorship by the proletariat.
3.  Liquidation of the classes of society that are incurably diseased by capitalism.
4.  Segregation of those who are diseased but capable of useful, isolated work.
5.  Hospitalization of the diseased but curable.
6.  Re-education of the total population.
7.  The emergence of a young generation, uninfluenced by capitalism
8.  The perfection of human nature.
9.  The withering away of the state (end of the dictatorship).
10.  The emergence of communism.

You're correct in saying that the Stalinist regime was not perfect communism.  It was far more bureaucratic than the original Marxian ideology (leading to the inequality of power in the governmenal hierarchy).

However, it was still miles away from Fascism.  Stalin and Lenin would never dream of claiming (as is a tenet of fascism) that peace is both impossible and useless.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2003, 11:40:33 AM by House_of_Mustard »
I got soul, but I'm not a soldier.

www.robisonwells.com