Author Topic: Robin Hood and King Arthur  (Read 3705 times)

House of Mustard

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Robin Hood and King Arthur
« on: February 16, 2004, 01:14:54 PM »
I have two seperate questions:

First, are there any really good Robin Hood books out there?  I read a few back in high school, and wasn't terribly impressed -- i can't remember which authors though.  Is there some quintessential Robin Hood out there?  Or should I just stick with Ivanhoe?

Second, what are the best Arthurian books?  I know that SE is something of an expert in this genre--is there something you'd recommend?  I've read the Mary Stewart series, but I wasn't as taken with it as a lot of people.  I know Fell recommended something by Cornwell a few months ago, but I haven't looked at that.  The truth is that I don't really have time to read several different Arthurian books to see the full scope of things, but I'd like to read maybe one or two.

Thanks.
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Re: Robin Hood and King Arthur
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2004, 02:41:30 PM »
I haven't read any good Robin Hood books. I tried one by Parke Godwin, but got very annoyed at his inconsistency.

The ones by Cornwell are very good. They're more historical novels with a little magic thrown in. Much more action oriented than Stewart, who used Merlin as the protagonist. Merlin in Cornwell's books is very different and a lot of fun. That describes most everything in this series, though. It's all different but fun. It's not typical Arthuriana.

But then, what is? T.H. White's Once and Future King is also very good, and a good overview, but he makes Uther Pendragon (Arthur's father) William the Conquerer, so you have a Norman Arthur instead of a Britonic one, and sets it up for culture conflicts between the celts, britons, saxons, and normans. Very interesting, but not typical. It's still very much works for the generic medieval Arthur. It's a very nice interpretation of Mallory when all is said and done, and with a much smoother writing style.

Mallory's Le Morte d'Arthur is, by the way, sort of the canonic Arthur, if there is one. It's quite long, though, and with a definite Medieval style. This is difficult for many people, and I don't blame them, though I like it.

Then there's Peter David's Knight Life, when Arthur comes back to run for Mayor of New York City. Well written, but well, not much else needs to be said besides "but." It's kind of fluffy. Not as good as Mark Twain's Connecticut Yankee... but definitely of the same ilk.

I don't like Mary Zimmerman Bradley. She has brilliant ideas, though the feminism is a bit heavy handed and not alway directed. But her characters and dialog are awful, imo. This one is more political, like Stewart's is. I throw it out in case you want to try it, but don't consider this a recommendation.

There's also Tennyson's Idylls of the King. A fairly safe interpretation, but that's maybe my looking back on it with a lot of Arthurian background. Plus, the style... well, it's Tennyson. It's a great work. But not exactly the easiest reading.

I know you asked about reading, but go see Excalibur. A great interpretation with wonderful filmmaking. The music is from an opera (I forget the composer) which was also about Arthur.

There's a ton of stuff that is Arthurian in theme, but not necessarily in content. Like the Robin William film The Fisher King, or the series The Dark is Rising but I'm assuming you want the actual legend. There are also a lot of bits and pieces, like many of Marie de France's lays.

The question is, do you want legend or do you want writing style more? If the former, go read Malory. If the latter, Tennyson and White. If you want just a good Arthur story, Cornwell. If you want his application is unconventional ways, Twain and David. Those are my calls.

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Re: Robin Hood and King Arthur
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2004, 03:39:57 PM »
Wow, I remember The Dark is Rising.

Unfortunately when I was at the age that I really really enjoyed the series, I didn't understand enough of the Arthurian bits.
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House of Mustard

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Re: Robin Hood and King Arthur
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2004, 05:09:50 PM »
What I want, SE, is one book (or short series, I guess) that captures the essence of Arthur, and explains to me why everybody loves it so much.
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Re: Robin Hood and King Arthur
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2004, 10:03:57 PM »
well, that's the thing. There isn't "A" reason everyone likes it so much. Get onto Arthurnet and you'll find people arguing about the folk tales, about the historical period, about the Roman influence, about whether the Britons were Samartian, about current adaptations, about the influences in Indiana Jones, about quasi-historical telling, about the original sources, about Medieval adaptations. And that's just the subject matter. Thematically there are a host of ideas that I won't even begin to mention here. People like Arthur for many, many different reasons. So I can't really give a single work.

The question is, what would interest YOU in a myth? I can probably find a re-telling that would cater to it.  The thing about Arthur is that it doesn't stem from a single familiar story-myth.

Take Oedipus. There are a hundred different tellings if you look for them, but they all have the same pattern. Gilgamesh is even less conflicted: there's about one canonical pattern..

The first reference to Arthur is essentially to a general. Later "history" references are about a king who fought of Saxons, with a few vague references to other things he may or may not have done. presumably, by this time there are a lot of folk tales floating around about him, but nothing you can pin down. He gets romanticized and stories get told about him. Since he's one of the few kings with a name (Charlemagne being the main other one), tales of knights get located in his court for people to latch on to. They know Arthur is a "good guy" even if they don't know anything else.

Later, partially through this trend, the body of myth co-opts a few other major story traditions: The Fisher King, Tristan and Iseult, and the Betrayal. Just for good measure, to make him all encompassing, we add in the classic Greek tragic faults: insest, being unaware of your connection to events, too much pride, etc. Stir in a huge dose of Christianity as they push out pagan religions (co-opting those as well) and voila.

some people like the Tristan and Iseult bits. Some like Gwenever/Lancelot. Others like the Greek myth influence. Others just like the Grail quest and the Fisher King. Some like the patriotic/Christian elements. Some like (one of the many) the historical periods.

People who like King Arthur, however, tend to like many other mythological ideas too, I've noticed. He's great because he's larger than life, a role model. A superhero, if you will. Which is why deconstructing him and doing quasi-historical takes on him has become more popular, I think.  However, for the superhuman aspect, I'd look to Tennyson or White. The "historical" Arthur is much less interesting until you know the epic Arthur.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2004, 10:04:45 PM by SaintEhlers »

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Re: Robin Hood and King Arthur
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2004, 10:32:54 PM »
It occurs to me that I have a list of Arhurian sources at home, in the Mutants of Avalon book (the TMNT After the Bomb supplement for England). I don't know how useful it is, but I'll take a look and let you know.
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Re: Robin Hood and King Arthur
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2004, 10:37:14 PM »
oh, i have a huge list of Arthurian works and references. that are worthy. But i'm trying to pare it down.

House of Mustard

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Re: Robin Hood and King Arthur
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2004, 11:33:03 AM »
Okay, well here is what I'm looking for, I guess:  I'm really into historical fiction much more than I'm into fantasy, so I'd like something that takes that kind of view.  Still, though, I'd like something that gives a good retelling of the classic epic story (I'm saying that I don't want all the magic stuff removed--just not the focus).  Most of all, I want something that is a good read.

Given what you said earlier, it sounds like you'd recommend Cornwell or White?

Here's another question, and forgive my Arthurian ignorance here:  From the smattering of the varying legends, I'm confused--it seems that sometimes he pulls excalibur from a stone and other times he gets it from the lady in the lake.  Which is correct?  (I guess there is no 'correct', since it's all myth).  Why is there the discrepancy, though?
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Re: Robin Hood and King Arthur
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2004, 01:01:02 PM »
Cornwell is the best for historical, in my opinion, though it does remove a lot of the magic. It's still kind of there, but mostly in the "misinterpreted because of superstition" sort of way.
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Re: Robin Hood and King Arthur
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2004, 01:42:30 PM »
Yeah, Cornwell or White. White is more true to typical event patterns, while Cornwell subverts it all. They're still both really good

And your assumption is right. THere is no right answer. In some he does one, in some he does the other, in some he does both in some order, in some he has two different swords that come from the source. There are different meanings read into each method, and different reasons why they're there.

House of Mustard

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Re: Robin Hood and King Arthur
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2004, 02:04:28 PM »
Fell, I know you read the Cornwell books.  Do you own them?
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Re: Robin Hood and King Arthur
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2004, 06:22:20 PM »
No, I borrowed them from a friend who since moved to Arizona. Get back, Loretta.
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House of Mustard

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Re: Robin Hood and King Arthur
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2004, 06:48:49 PM »
Well, that sucks.  I'm too cheap to buy them.  I guess there is the library, but I'm staunchly anti-library.
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Re: Robin Hood and King Arthur
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2004, 06:50:56 PM »
Why are you anti-library? I'm pro-library usually. Except now, when I have these books that have been overdue for 2 months and I can't return them because they won't let me renew them any more and I must use them for my project. Are you like me, a prolonged user of books?
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House of Mustard

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Re: Robin Hood and King Arthur
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2004, 06:55:54 PM »
No.  It's that I was in love with the U of U library, and I'd hide in it's massive corridors for hours and hours, but now I can't check anything out since I graduated.

The real problem is that there's a big brand new library in downtown SLC, and it's really pretty and top of the line.  And it's filled from morn till night with the toothless dregs of society checking their email and playing Hearts over the internet.  And it bugs me.  It's also noisy.  I like libraries that are quiet and used for studying, not libraries that are noisy and used for email/community events.
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