Author Topic: Wheel of Time  (Read 15544 times)

Lieutenant Kije

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Re: Wheel of Time
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2003, 05:13:38 PM »
Yeah, to be serious, I'd never get into a heated debate with a student about something like that.  To be honest, I'd never get into a heated (emotionally-charged) debate with a student period.  Keeping your cool is always a good idea.  But if I were able to guide the debate along the lines of witty banter/trash talking, with the occassionally dropped good point, it might be fun, and get the students to think about things.  You know, spend a minute before class, a minute in the hall during passing time, something like this would strengthen the relationship rather than undermine it.  Always keeping it positive, never making personal attacks.

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: Wheel of Time
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2003, 10:52:26 PM »
You guys remove all the fun from destroying the souls of teh young and innocent

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Re: Wheel of Time
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2003, 11:12:27 PM »
Gah!  :o I leave the forum for a little while and I come back to find this topic at three pages!
Okay, I get it, WoT isn't well liked here. I for one do like it. Its not on par with LotR, but what is. There is nothing inherently better about any of these works than any other, just a messure of one enjoyment. As for my comparison of Jordan to Tolkien, Shakespeare and others like them: WoT, LotR, a Middsummer's Nigh dream, and the complete works of Edgar Allen Poe share a shelf in my dormroom  :)
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Lieutenant Kije

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Re: Wheel of Time
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2003, 12:09:53 AM »
In school, the destruction of young, innocent souls is reserved for the PE teacher.  I've subbed for PE classes.  It's like peering into the very Heart of Darkness.

**shudder**

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: Wheel of Time
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2003, 12:12:51 AM »
I think being a PE teacher is *BEING* in the very heart of darkness.

EUOL

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Re: Wheel of Time
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2003, 01:38:42 AM »
Let me put in a small defense for our esteemed colleague Mr. Rigney, also known as Robert Jordan.  Despite criticisms, many of which are valid, he has done several important things.

1)  He consistently gets on the best seller lists.  This helps fantasy in general sell better.

2) He may not be extremely original, but he provides crossover appeal.  I know several people who are not fantasy authors, but who enjoy Robert Jordan.  By maintaining such a high profile, he again helps fantasy by giving new people experience with he genre.

3) He put in his time.  He may have had inside help, but he spent years writing those Conan books before he finally was able to put out his own series.  The Eye of the World was not published in hardback originally (as I remember.)  It received only moderate publicity.  It succeeded on the merits of its story.  

Now, he may have exploited this success a little too far, but is there really any reason to pick him out as opposed to other authors, such as Anne McCaffery and Piers Anthony, who have done the exact same thing?

ps.  Lay off Mellville, you philistine.   ;)
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The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: Wheel of Time
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2003, 08:40:54 AM »
Mellville is the devil.

And who's letting Piers Anthony off the hook? I regret every last second I spent reading him as a teenager, or which there are more than I care to mention.

Entsuropi

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Re: Wheel of Time
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2003, 08:43:22 AM »
who is peirs antony?

For that matter, who is mellville?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2003, 08:43:55 AM by Charlie82 »
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Fellfrosch

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Re: Wheel of Time
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2003, 08:46:11 AM »
Piers ANthony has written about a billion fantasy and science fiction targetted at teenagers. They're all horrible and yet teenagers still love him. And as he gets older he becomes more and more perverted. Ick.

Mellville wrote this heinously boring novel called Moby Dick, Or the Whale.

EUOL

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Re: Wheel of Time
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2003, 10:33:33 AM »
What is it about Anthony, anyway?  You're dead on.  Teenagers--and I was one of them--love him.  I can think back to most of my teenage infatuations (even most TSR books) with fondness, but I think of him and just cringe.  

Perhaps Anthony was a bad example.  The point of the referance, however, was to note that few series can keep momentum through that many books.  Some very fine authors write some fairly bad books when they're forced to reuse the same ideas over and over.

As for Melville, I have only one question.  Have you read Billy Budd?  It's far superior to Moby Dick.  (Though, to be honest, I like Moby Dick too.)
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Re: Wheel of Time
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2003, 11:56:42 AM »
I dunno. I attribute it to general lack of taste in adolescants.

Better examples for your rant would probably have been Terry Brooks (though I don't really want to see this become a Brooks/Jordan fight again) or Raymond E. Feist, who had a really good first series and then let it slowly deteriorate until we got the Krondor series (ick!). Upholding your argument would have been citiing his Servant of the Empire series or Faerie Tale, both of which used new characters and new settings, and were much better than any of his successive books set in Midkimia after the Riftwar Saga.

As for Mellville, yeah, BB is considerably better than MD, but I still can't say I enjoyed it like I do even a number of other American classics (and I don't like much American "literature").


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Re: Wheel of Time
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2003, 12:01:58 PM »
The serpent war series was quite good, but all the ones between rift and serpent were pretty crap. And the ones based on the computer games are just painful. But the servant series was awesome. And i liked the horror one set in modern day america.
If you're ever in an argument and Entropy winds up looking staid and temperate in comparison, it might be time to cut your losses and start a new thread about something else :)

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Re: Wheel of Time
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2003, 03:56:31 PM »
That's sort of my point. The Serpent War had new characters and a huge chunk of it took place on a completely separate continent from the other series.  That's why I liked it better than most of his others.

Eagle Prince

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Re: Wheel of Time
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2003, 04:10:40 PM »
Quote
I would recommend to someone the first three, but then they should stop.


This is strangly exactly what I tell people.  Read the first three and pretend it ends there, otherwise you are just wasting your time.  Now there are some people who still love the series, but these are usually the same type of fans who make me hate the books even more.  You can't even do a WoT RPG with them, because if the even slightest deviation from the novels is found, you will never hear the end of it.

These same fans who actually do roleplay get even worse.  9/10 times they will play an Aes Sedai and mock anyone who plays a nonchanneler that believes they have even a slight chance of doing anything significant.  No one is allowed to play a book character unless they are only going to do a scene out of the book word for word, in fear of changing the story.  Which of course leads to the group never being able to do anything of real importance, because anything remotely useful would somehow change the story.  So keep in mind that one reason I do not like these books as much is from roleplaying with people like this.

The first two books were good.  The begining and end of Dragon Reborn was good, but everything in between was boring save for the occational scene (like when they fight the darkhounds), because RJ took out the main character.  Four got better, with a lot of the story about Rand, but ever since that book the story has steered further and further away from the main character and to all the secondary characters.  Its now got to the point where you are reading 20 pages about a character who was mentioned once or twice in a previous book and you only get passing mention of the main character.

Its also slowly becoming aparrent that many of the things RJ said about the series is untrue.  When people first started noticing the change in tempo, he credited it to moving away from the LotR base he set the first book on.  Now it is easy to see the change in tempo was him moving away from the idea of having a central character and going to a bunch of secondary characters with occationally interwoven plotlines (similar to a soap opera).  Strangely enough, his fanbase has shifted from young males to older females.  This is probably the same reason so many fans complain about the WoT RPG, since it was based off the fantasy world of the first few books instead of the drama of the latter.

Probably the worst thing is how hard the story is getting to follow.  The first books, it was about all of these unmentioned things you could figure out by rereading them and paying attention.  All of these have been completely revealed at this point, and left in their place are overdone descriptions and even more characters.  I've heard a few confused people think its because the answer is in these little untold stories that the first few books had (like how all the main characters had some type of bloodline connection to each other).  But nothing is there, the reason its confusing at all is the sheer overwhelming force of all the characters.  The books are practically split into 20-page chapters each about a completely different character and plot.  The books are also litterally backtracking.  Between the end of book 9 and end of book 10, only several days pass.  This is because most of the book is a flashback to things that happened in book 9 and even far back as book 8 or earlier.  The book will say one thing has happened (that something being a plot advancement), then in the next book you only discover it never happened.  Which goes back to RJ's contrived method of "rumors" he set up, where only 10% of what you hear is true.  At least he gives readers a clue that most of what they're reading is BS.

I can't talk about this anymore today.  The more I think about them the more I hate them.  I'm ashamed to even say I've read them (and a lot more than once... its basically a requirement to understand what the heck is going on).
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Xaio

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Re: Wheel of Time
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2004, 08:17:55 PM »
WOT Sux.  Lord of the Rings rules.  Anyone who says different should be fed through a grater....
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