Wheel of Time

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I don't hate EVERYTHING. Just anything in the last 350 years or so

I kid!

I had a friend in an IRC chatroom point out that everyone he knows who studied creative writing formally now hates to write. ANd I *can* take a joke, really, I'm just pointing things out because it annoys Entropy when I get "too analytical"

[42]

"As a student of the arts, the bitterness inside you must be carefully cultivated and focused so that you may snub any artistic endevour as a mockery to your very essence."

A quote from the National Standards for the Arts.

[Fellfrosch]

I've never considered Dickens a realist. All of his characters are charicatures and all of his stories are melodramas. Maybe he is classed as a realist based on period or some such artificial label, but to that I say Bah!

And Chaos--don't even pretend to class Jordan in the same group as Tolkien, Chaucer, and Shakespeare. I know you didn't mean it, but it still hurts.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

It's not just eras. "Realism" isn't necessarily based on exactly how the characters are portrayed. It's how it looks at the world and the setting. There is actually a lot that is metaphoric and allegorical about realist texts. Dickens is a realist. And despite the allegory and metaphor, I find him icky.

[Lieutenant Kije]

When I was doing student teaching I had two juniors who would try and convince me that Robert Jordan was light-years better than Tolkien.  Major tongue-biting time, I tell you.  As teachers, we try and build students up, not lay the smack down, and sometimes that's very hard.  

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

Even when they have no clue what they're talking about? Shouldn't they have to learn when they're wrong or soemthing? I mean, what could you POSSIBLY base that argument on? That Trollocs are cooler than orcs? Or that an angsty youngster who never makes a decision is cooler than a hobbit?

[Lieutenant Kije]

To be honest, I was al little angry when they pestered me.  Angry because of what they said, or perhaps their ignorance.  (Yes, I'm a rabid Tolkien fan.)  And what I had to say at the moment wouldn't have been educational.  It would have been mean.

Perhaps ignorance is their punishment.  (Yes, I'm an awful teacher.)  Perhaps they will come to the truth eventually of their own accord and look back with gratitude that I spared them the humilation in front of their peers.  Or maybe they'll be mad that I hadn't stopped them sooner, and hunt me down in ten years with an assault rifle.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

which end result do YOU deserve?

[Lieutenant Kije]

Maybe they can say "thanks" before they shoot me.  And then legislation banning assault weapons following the outrageous killing (which of course occurred in the classroom.)  They'll call it the "Kije Bill."  And Charleton Heston will hate me.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

Ooo. You don't want him hating you. He's got an "in" with God.

Wait... that's Moses... Nevermind...

[42]

You know, we all derive entertainment value differently. From my experience, that is all that high school students look at in book. What sort of hedonistic value do they get out of it. So, yes it is sad they don't recognize value beyond "that's cool", but as a teacher you can't take away that simplistic happiness away from them as that would simply be cruel.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

The problem isn't that they like a book, it's that they endeavored to "prove" to a fan of an inherantly better book that their lesser book was better.

[Entsuropi]

I vote we lead a punitive strike upon these students to protect a fellow forum goer.

[Lieutenant Kije]

Hey, we've got pretty strong precedence for pre-emptive action now.  Why don't we just nuke a bunch of them for good measure?

42, you make an interesting point.  Perhaps in future classes I should precede the study of any work of literature by an "Introduction to Hedonism" lesson.  That could be fun.  Aside from the getting fired part.

[42]

Yes, but in their view of things it's really just your hedonistic taste versus their hedonistic taste and they believe that their approach to hedonism is better. And often with teenagers, they have their self-esteem wrapped up in this too.

So, first, inherent superiority is not recognized, so that is a null point. Second, it would devolve into a battle of self-esteem which would probably end with the teenagers feeling antagonistic towards the teacher and thus undermining the respect the teacher has earned.

Essentially, for a teacher to argue with his/her students about this kind of stuff is just a bad idea all around. Any other adult probably could, but a teacher really shouldn't.