EUOLogy #13

[Archon]

I read a book recently where the main character is told that if she wants to prove herself to her brother she had to kill a character the reader knows to be good.  She does it, and that killed the book for me because I no longer wanted to read about this person.

First of all, did she know this character that she killed?
Second of all, I dont think that you can hold that against the girl too much if she is obsessed with being accepted by her brother. It all depends on her psychology. If she is not of strong character and needs someone to accept her, then it is very easy to see how she would kill to gain that reassurance. The action remains immoral, but the person may not be.

[stacer]

Nope. Not buying it. There's a difference between being psychotic and not responsible for your actions and needy. Just because she wants her brother to accept her doesn't take away her culpability.

[Archon]

Not if she fully knew what she was doing. But my first question to Sigyn was did the girl know the character she killed. And even if she did, it is quite possible to become so focused on the acceptance of her brother that nothing else seems important. If someone is obsessed, with a person especially, the object of their obsession has enough of their focus to shunt things like morality out of their mind. If something can make their dream come true, that is all that matters. I don't know enough about the book to know whether or not she has crossed that line, but it is certainly possible.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

either way, the killing is reprehensible.

The focus on the violence is the justification. But the definition of murder is pretty much that it's not justified. there are a number of successful stories in various formats right now that feature murder, not defending oneself or going to war or that sort of thing.

And my note is that we have much less problem with that sort of thing, at least in the US, than we do with random adultery.

[Archon]

I would agree with that Saint, but surely if she is that obsessed, it doesnt make the character so bad that it ruins the book. It is much easier to relate to someone like that, in my opinion, and to see that it is not that hard of a trap to fall into.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

you think murder isn't a hard trap to fall into?

and define obsession? are we talking something on the level with my predilication for Ninja Monkeys? or are we talking psychosis? Because it's just as hard for me to make the connection to one so insane that she can't identify right from wrong as it is to identify with someone who willingly commits wrong.

which, again, is all beside the point of my original question. If she's insane enough to be unaccountable, than it's not murder. Why is MURDER so glossed in our society?

[Eagle Prince]

Anyone else ever read the Death Dealer series?

[Mr_Pleasington]

Thanks for the kind words in the article EUOL.

And the piece was great.  Always good to see things from another viewpoint.

[Archon]

Why is MURDER so glossed in our society?

Maybe because long ago, and still today, killing for a (good) cause can be shown as a good thing. Killing makes a big influence, for good or for evil, therefore, many times, the killers are the ones who make the most difference. I am not saying that there aren't people who are equally as effective peacefully, but killing works more often, simply because for peaceful resistance to work, you have to be remembered and supported by a large mass of people, and you can be repressed. Killing someone in power is impossible to cover up, therefore you can't help but be remembered, or at least your actions can't. If someone were to assassinate Hitler, they would be considered a huge hero, because although the means is still evil, it would have an enormous positive effect. The assassin could still be considered wicked, but not many would call him that, considering the circumstances. Therefore, since killers are often celebrated, their actions may have inherited some of their reverence.

[Sigyn]

Okay, the girl in the story knows the guy she is supposed to kill.  She is told he is a bad person, but she knows he is at least a kind person. In fact, he and his girlfriend are two of the only people who are nice to her.  She also knows that by killing the guy she will be ruining the life of his girlfriend, who she thinks is a good person. She is told she must kill him to "prove" herself. I didn't buy when I was reading it that this was enough motivation for her character to do what she was doing.

I think our society accepts murder more easily because of our folk history. We have the whole genre of the wild west and taking justice into your own hands and kill or be killed. Even if those aren't necessarily the motivations in books or games (though they often are), I think we often shunt those actions off into those terms so that we don't have as much trouble dealing with it.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Im not so sure that the sex is going either... It may be off the covers, but its definately between the pages. Guy Guirival Kays Tigana for instance has a graphic sex scene a few pages in and blatant x rated bondage later. I was more than a little surprised. Joan D Vinges The Summer Queen is filled with sex. In fact when I see a love scene in a fantasy novel these days chances are its going to be hardcore. I didnt expect it with Kay, even though his opus the Finovar Tapestry had a little sex it had been tame compared to Tigana.