Author Topic: column: EUOLogy #18  (Read 5431 times)

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Re: column: EUOLogy #18
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2005, 11:29:30 AM »
I'm actually RETURNING to F&SF. I was largely out of the loop for a long time... really ever since I got out of High School. Back then, though, the only stuff I was reading that I'd still call any good was Anne McCaffery. I read a lot of Piers Anthony.

I read a lot of out of genre stuff through college, but unlike n8, I find the charge of "over analyzing" to generally be a false charge. I studied Comp Lit though, and have always had a rather condescending attitude toward ENglish depts in general. The problem with academic study setting your precedent is that most institutions are either too accepting of what they allow in (come on guys, not EVERYTHING is good, there's a lot of crap out there) or they're too conservative, and refuse to acknowledge new genres. Often there's an odd mix of the two, like how William S. Burroughs is literate and worth reading but something by Mark Waid or Peter David is not. Foolishness.

During college most of the speculative fiction I read was superheroes or the TLE slush pile. Now I'm finally getting back into reading a lot of prose f&sf, and I find it wonderful, but I bring up the superheroes for this reason:

comics experienced a HUGE boom in the late 80's - early 90's. They were responding to a huge increase in collecting by making stuff worth collecting. Or at least, which they thought would entice speculative investors. Alternate covers, special editions, massive crossovers. In effect, everything was a gimmick. Ever since the industry has flagged. Marvel even declared bankruptcy at one point (largely due to major business misconceptions regarding trying to avoid Diamond distributors and doing their own distributing, however, better sales would have kept them out of bankruptcy at least).  But they've learned. Since then you see much fewer gimmick attempts. The writers are getting better and you're seeing a lot more alternative press: even the "big two" which held so long after the folding of Whitman and EC comics has turned into the big four: with Marvel and DC being joined by Image and Dark Horse, and true small press comics getting a lot more attention: Dreamwave and Top Cow have some major titles and big lisences -- and they do a good job, even attracting some of the best writers and artists in the industry.

The drop in sales, ultimately, increased the quality of the output in the industry as a whole.

So why the tangent? I don't see the drop in F&SF as a bad thing, necessarily. It's obviously still big enough to keep going. Eventually, publishing houses will realize that there's still a market for this stuff... if they do it right. The increasing number of blockbuster F&SF films shows there's an interest in the genre, it just needs to be done well.

In comics, more than anywhere else, readers tend to follow characters. Rather than follow a writer or artist when he switches titles, most readers just drop the title when the quality drops. This means that the publishers have to respond by getting good writers and artist on even their most popular characters (like X-Men, Spidey, Batman or Superman) in order to keep them popular. prose publishers will do the same. They'll realize there's still a lot of people out there who want to buy Tolkien, Herbert, or Heinline or Jordan. They just don't want to see the fluff as much. Sure, there are die hard fans still going for Star Wars and Star Trek and Forgotten Realms and other lisences, so those won't ever drop, but the bottom line will make them realize that there's money to be made in finding really good writers and publishing their stuff.

It may take longer than comics. After, companies like Image and Marvel are one trick ponies. If superheroes stop selling so well, they don't have anything to fall back on, while book publishers will turn to spy thrillers and romances and mysteries and whatever else, but where there's money to be made, and there is, they'll see what they need to do.

So maybe there is something to what EUOL is saying. F&SF readers want something more than a nifty premise or the same old plot, only in Florence instead of Rome this time. But publishers will realize that eventually, and we'll get more. After all, it happened before. It used to be all Tolkien clones, as EUOL said. Now fantasy has branched out to many different worlds and ideas. so we plateau for a bit. In a decade or two, we'll be racing back up the slope.

Man, I talk a lot. I could have made that Saint's Letters #1 and started my own Monday column instead of just posting on the thread.

Skar

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Re: column: EUOLogy #18
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2005, 11:37:40 AM »
Capitolism rocks!  I like SE's reasoning.  
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Re: column: EUOLogy #18
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2005, 11:38:30 AM »
I feel validated when people like my reasoning.

/me shows off his warm fuzzy.

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Re: column: EUOLogy #18
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2005, 11:44:11 AM »
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It does not negate the fact that SF&F fans have accustomed themselves to a far wider variety of worldviews than Romance/Thriller fans.


All that I was meaning (and what I think I said pretty clearly) is that you're only presented with a new reality if you're presented with something creative and well done.  Another book about elves does not present anything new -- it's a world we already know.

For that matter (and I'm sure people will disagree with me), but what is the difference between the new reality of a fantasy world and the new reality of a life you're unfamiliar with?  For example, if I know nothing about the world of horse racing, or sheep farming, or Albanian politics, then books about those things would be just as enlightening or informative or opening-up-new-worlds as anything about dragons and magic.

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I'm going to assume that the "you" HoM is being condescending to is some sort of communal "you" referring to everyone on the TWG but him.


Not everyone, but I didn't want to make a list.  :)  But yes, I do think (unapologetically) that there's quite a bit of blind favortism on this board.  I won't say I've never been guilty, but I try not to do it.  (I write for a genre that gets a lot of unwarranted negativism -- generally from people that never read any of the stuff they make fun of.  To imply that one genre is intrisically better than another -- without really reading the other -- is simply wrong.  You can say you don't prefer reading one or the other, but you can't pass one off as wholesale crap.)
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Re: column: EUOLogy #18
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2005, 11:47:56 AM »
By the way, sorry it took me so long to respond -- I didn't get on the boards all weekend.
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Re: column: EUOLogy #18
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2005, 11:57:57 AM »
Okay, so this is what I want to know, and I don't know if the magazine EUOL reads would know this: How does the current HUGE increase in juvenile fantasy fit in with the drop in sales? Is this taken into account? Because LOTS of mainstream children's publishers who ignored the genre or only published one or two fantasy titles a year are now jumping on the bandwagon. It's a golden age for children's and YA fantasy right now. I don't know any numbers, and so I wonder if EUOL's numbers include those sales.
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Skar

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Re: column: EUOLogy #18
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2005, 02:04:24 PM »
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All that I was meaning (and what I think I said pretty clearly) is that you're only presented with a new reality if you're presented with something creative and well done.  Another book about elves does not present anything new -- it's a world we already know.
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Remember we're mostly speaking from inside here. If you were an exclusive reader of romance/thrillers(inserted...or another book about elves.../inserted) who was suddenly presented with a Star Trek novel, yeah, you would have to extend yourself a great deal.

The reverse is not true.  If you're a reader of SF&F who picks up a romance/thriller you don't have to extend yourself because the story and world presented is deliberatly designed to correspond very closely with what you already know.  It's the whole point of the genre.


Quote

For that matter (and I'm sure people will disagree with me), but what is the difference between the new reality of a fantasy world and the new reality of a life you're unfamiliar with?  For example, if I know nothing about the world of horse racing, or sheep farming, or Albanian politics, then books about those things would be just as enlightening or informative or opening-up-new-worlds as anything about dragons and magic.


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The main difference between SF&F and Literature in this respect is that Literature shows us strange landscapes that, while new and strange to most of us, do in fact exist.  SF&F shows us new  and strange landscapes that don't happen to actually exist.  (side note:  I have a far clearer picture in my mind of say...Minas Tirith...than I do of Moscow)


To clarify: In my view being literary does not translate to being "good" or "worthwhile"  

I foresaw this misunderstanding and tried to prevent it in my second post where I attempted to define "literature" according to my 5 years of study/experience in the academic world.  My definition may not agree with yours but using an understanding/definition of "literature" that does not agree with the one I posted in order to disagree seems deliberately argumentative.  (and pretty much a waste of time...therefore...totally suited to discussions on this particular forum?  Wait...)
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Re: column: EUOLogy #18
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2005, 04:15:59 PM »
I assume this is the definition you're talking about:

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Works that are classified as Literature, from "Beowulf" to "Dante's Inferno" to "The Bean Trees" all take the reader to some place that could reasonably be expected to be totally outside their experience, whether it's a novel location or novel issues or novel whatever.  The same is true of SF&F, by definition.

Romance/thrillers on the other hand cash in by taking their readers to places they've fantasized about for their whole lives.  Whether it's true love or tracking down evildoers we've all fantasized about it.  Romance/thriller authors flesh out our own fantasy landscapes instead of introducing us to new ones.


But what if we disagree with your definitions?  Are you simply saying that if something is "good", it no longer fits the romance/thriller genre? -- it suddenly becomes 'literature'?  Because, if so, you're fueling the aforementioned stereotyoing via your own subjective view of what is "good".  

The only other interpretation of your definitions is that there is no way that romance/thrillers can ever become literature.  

Neither interpretation seems very helpful -- they seem to just be custom-made definitions that push the agenda: romance/thrillers are intrinsically worse than SF&F.
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Re: column: EUOLogy #18
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2005, 04:18:38 PM »
Also:
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the story and world presented is deliberatly designed to correspond very closely with what you already know.  It's the whole point of the genre.


I think that last sentence simply proves the point that you don't read a lot in the genre.
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n8sumsion

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Re: column: EUOLogy #18
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2005, 04:50:44 PM »
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The only other interpretation of your definitions is that there is no way that romance/thrillers can ever become literature.  

Neither interpretation seems very helpful -- they seem to just be custom-made definitions that push the agenda: romance/thrillers are intrinsically worse than SF&F.


I'm okay with both of these statements. I'm a snob, I admit it. I look down on Romance fiction as a waste of my time to read. The same way slapping a Star Trek logo on a book is going to turn away anyone that doesn't like Star Trek, labeling a book as Romance is instantly going to kill any desire I might have to read it. I think this is an inherent problem with genre fiction, and until there is a way to break down the rigidly departmentalized genre walls, you are always going to alienate people before they ever crack open the cover.

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Re: column: EUOLogy #18
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2005, 04:54:03 PM »
see, that's prejudiced.

HoM's point is that just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's valueless. Maybe the value is has doesn't appeal to you, but it's there nonetheless.

Skar

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Re: column: EUOLogy #18
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2005, 05:40:46 PM »
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But what if we disagree with your definitions?  Are you simply saying that if something is "good", it no longer fits the romance/thriller genre? -- it suddenly becomes 'literature'?  Because, if so, you're fueling the aforementioned stereotyoing via your own subjective view of what is "good".  

It would help if you read the posts you are trying to respond to.
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To clarify: In my view being literary does not translate to being "good" or "worthwhile"  



If you disagree with the idea that Romance/Thrillers provide only a glossier version of reality and don't attempt to stretch the readers worldview, fine, give an example of what you're talking about, like I have.

As for them being custom made definitions, I disagree.  In the definition post I described a way of defining "literature" that was in line with the academic work being done in the field when I was in University.  It was not an attack on your genre.  It was just an attempt to define what the academics are thinking when they define something as literature.  

When it comes to what's "good" and what's not I am in total agreement with you.  A good story is a good story no matter its genre.  A good story may or may not be considered literature, however, depending on how the "academics" label it. (and it's the academics at work here, if it were up to me, every good story would be considered "literature" and studied as such)  I have found that academics look for ideas that stretch the reader's worldview, among other things, when they try to define what is and is not "literature."   SF&F does this one thing more (for all the reasons I've given and you have not responded to) than Romance/Thrillers.

All this begs the question of why SF&F is not considered literary by more than a handful of the literary types.  I suspect it's because SF&F typically does not promulgate the liberal politics so essential to most literary academic's worldview.  That question, however, is not germaine to the topic at hand because no one has argued that SF&F is or should be considered "literature", simply that it is more like "literature," in the one way I've pointed out, than Romance/Thrillers : expanding the reader's worldview.

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Also: ...
I think that last sentence simply proves the point that you don't read a lot in the genre.


I said as much.  If you think I'm wrong, point out how, don't just snipe.
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Re: column: EUOLogy #18
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2005, 06:31:23 PM »
Okay, examples.  I just hopped over to Barnes and Noble's website and looked at the top ten lists for both romance and thrillers.  Using Skar's examples of a different worldview (novel locations, novel issues, or novel whatever), here's what I found:

Romance:  At least four books (in the top ten) take place in different time periods.  At least two deal with issues such as sexual abuse and psychological trauma.  Two more are about vampires.

Thriller: At least six deal with psychological studies.  Four deal with the supernatural.  At least two deal with professions that are uncommon and strange.  Several deal with abuse.  At least one deals with mythology.

See how easy that was?  I didn't even have to try, and here are plenty of books that prove that romances and thrillers often stretch worldviews.  I fully admit that not all romance/thrillers do (there were a couple romances on the list that show how romance got the reputation it has), but all I'm saying is that you can't lump one genre altogether, nor does SF&F and the illustrious "literature" have a corner on the worldview market.
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n8sumsion

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Re: column: EUOLogy #18
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2005, 06:49:21 PM »
Hmm... Romance books with vampires in them? See,  I wouldn't categorize that as Romance. That would be horror to me. And I'll read a horror book.

See how easy it is to not have to adjust my world view?

I am being a little tongue-in-cheek about some of this stuff, but I'm serious in that regardless of how we may wish otherwise, the general public (which I'm lumping myself into) is going to make an opinion based on how the book is defined by the publisher. Is that predujiced? Sure, I think that's an accurate accusation. I'll fess up to it.

Of course you can't lump all books of one genre into a "good" or "bad" pile. But if, in general, I like most sci-fi books and I don't like most romance novels, then when confronted with the choice to spend some valuable time reading a new book, I'm going to go with a book that is more likely to appeal to me. That means romance books are right out.

It is a two-way street though. With the success of the Harry Potter books, a bunch of other books have been lumped into the "me too!" category, and several of them that I wouldn't have read otherwise I've found very entertaining, such as the Artemis Fowl books.

I think you'll be fighting an uphill battle to try and argue that any kind of genre book will qualify as high literature however. No matter how much I may have enjoyed some of R. A. Salvatore's books, the fact that there's a D&D logo on the cover is going to automatically dump it into a fluff category.

Hmm... I've kind of lost track of where I was going with this post. I should probably stop before I ramble too far off. I'll just sum up by saying, I'm glad there are those of us on the board who enjoy other genres of literature besides simply fantasy and science-fiction. Just don't expect to convert me to enjoying them too. I'm very comfortable in my cozy worlds of horror and F&SF.

Skar

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Re: column: EUOLogy #18
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2005, 08:51:43 PM »
HoM: Good, thank you.  You're very condescending in your tone but you've still not addressed the point.

You CAN'T call something SF&F without setting it somewhere novel or dealing with novel ideas.  

You CAN have romances and thrillers that don't.

Show me how that's not true and how that doesn't mean that SF&F does more stretching of worldviews.
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As for not lumping genres together, how do you define a genre if not as a convenient means of lumping books that share certain characteristics together?  If you don't like the concept of genres at all, well... that's another argument, much like one we had before.

And to forestall another round, I agree with n8's assertion that you can't lump all books of a genre into "good" or "bad" categories.  Never said it, never thought it.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2005, 08:56:37 PM by Skar »
"Skar is the kind of bird who, when you try to kill him with a stone, uses it, and the other bird, to take vengeance on you in a swirling melee of death."

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