Mainstream Fantasy

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

i sent it before I left for work.

[Eagle Prince]

I thought about looking at this from a slightly different angle.  Instead of stories with elves, dwarves, and orcs what about stories with dragons.  By no means should they be in every fantasy story, but if they disappeared completely that would just be sad.  Or what about wizards.  Not every story needs them, but surely it can't be a point against an author if he puts one in his story, can it?  I don't feel people will stop reading, or even get bored, when they pick up a new book and discover there will be dragons and wizards in it.  Or maybe monsters disappearing from horror stories.

I totally get what you are trying to say, I've thought about it myself (althought on slightly different lines, my own personal reading habbits rather than the entire world's).  I think there is something more to it than just setting and plot.  If you really wanted to write a fantasy novel that blew people's hair back, then write it about freedom of speech, terrorism, abortion, religious freedm, what it means to be human, animal rights, the right to bear arms, or the perils of love.  Don't just talk about one, make it the whole point of your book.  If I predicted any great change in people's reading habbits as they got older and more mature, it would be wanting not just a new story, but a story that is really and truly about something, anything. Something with meaning, something with purpose.  But maybe that's just my romantic idea (You see, romance without sex... It's possible!)

[Fellfrosch]

An author that branches out of the stereotype quite frequently is good ol' David Gemmel. He describes himself as a Louis La'mour imitator, which says a lot--it says that his books tend to be smaller in scope than typical fantasy, but also that they avoid the plots and ruts of typical fantasy (in his own words, "I hate reading a book about a poor, helpless boy, because as soon as he comes on the page I know he'll be king by the end of the book"). He's not a stunningly good author, in the literary sense, but he's a very proficient writer who's helping to expand the concept of what Fantasy is allowed to be about.

[Master Xaio]

By no means should thinngs such as wizards, dragons, elves etc. be totally eradicated from fantasy; its just that a little more variety would be nice, and new takes.

I quite enjoyed the Black Magician trilogy for this reason, because it had no tolkien type elves or dwarves, but it had its own world, own world affairs and history, own issues, and it told a good story.

But I'm still curious to hear EUOL's reply.

[EUOL]

Out of curiosity, what general plot ideas would you present as alternatives to the antihero/quest/growing up/sudden discovery of powers general stories going round atm.  I can easily see how to and design a world, races, etc. but I find it a bit hard come up with an original plot idea.

That's a good question.  One thing that has to be acknowledged is that storytelling, at its core, is repetitive.  Even back in Greek times they were theorizing that there were only a handful of different story ideas.  This, however, speaks only of the bones of the story--you can't even call these prototypical ideals 'stories.'  They're more frameworks.

There is plenty of room for originality in storytelling.  I'm not saying that we have to abandon 'growing up' stories.  However, why do all of our 'apprentice' style fantasy heroes all have to follow the exact same life-cycle?  I suggest taking this 'coming of age' story archetype and putting new clothing on the framework--making it interesting again.  Instead of having the apprentice hook up with the lovely princess, have him fall for someone else.  (A plotting structure Hobb used to great effect.)  Instead of having him end up king of the universe, take him down a different path.

As EP pointed out, dragons and wizards are two things that have a bit more resiliency in fantasy.  I even wrote a book that marginally included dragons.  (Though, I'll admit, I did it partially because I really liked the title I came up with.)

Yet, I even question these fantasy staples.  Too many writers, I think, describe creativity as 'I'm going to write a book about elves.  It'll be creative because MY elves are different from everyone else's elves.'  If you were really creative, my friend, you wouldn't need the elves.  

[Entsuropi]

That is a nice point EUOL. The assassin trilogy was very much a growing up story, but it was different from all the rest. Much darker, less glory. And all he ends up as, at the end of the 3rd book, is a guy who cripples himself in his own mind, with only a cottage, a wolf and a boy to call his own.

I must admit being way out of my depth here. I'll admit, when you look at many major fantasy series's, they all fit under the catagory of 'growing up'. However, surely the vast differences between them counts for something? Wheel of time, Belleriad, Wizards first rule, Serpent war, Narnia (?), LOTR may all be growing up stories, but they are hardly similar in other respects.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

If all you're saying is that we need to be good storytellers, that is, not just repeating the same thing but looking at different aspects of the same things, occassionally coming up with truly original structures, I'd agree. But I think this is already being done. But has been said before "90% of science fiction is crap. But what of it? 90% of everything is crap." Just like comics, the vast majority are simply juvenile male power fantasies. But you get some people out there doing truly brilliant things, even with superheroes. It's sad that so much of it is terrible, but that's just the way it is, I think. A fact of literary life. Sift out the poor and go with the good stuff.

There's not much wrong with your first stories being formulaic, either, I think. That's how you learn to avoid being formulaic, by learning that formula is all you've been doing.

As a side step, I think style has been underestimated of late as well. I don't care so much if the story is dead formulaic if the author can express it brilliantly.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

hear, hear!
/me harooms loudly

[The Jade Knight]

Hmmm.

I've spent a lot of time World-Building, and only finally getting around to writing (in any "real" publication-hopeful sense of the word), I've been toying around a lot with trying to come up with a plot.  As a new and budding writer, Plot terrifies me.  I still struggle to come up with interesting stories that are filled with "need" and "suspense" in an interesting not overdone fashion.

But apart from all this, after reading this thread, I've come upon a sort of difficulty—I have a fairly elaborate world which is specifically Tolkienesque Fantasy (Elves, Dwarves, Wizards, Dragons, yup).  Granted, it's a completely new creation, with several twists of its own (and some completely new races/creatures, etc.), but escaping the "Tolkien stereotype" is impossible with this world.

Will it and should it be held against me or my writing?  I admit that it's not the most ultimately Creative—Tolkien did something incredible with his Fantasy.  He took common English mythology (lore/stories/superstition, in addition to actual mythology), and transformed it into something new and wonderful.  Now, for an American (particularly raised as I was), this is all but impossible.  Tolkien was raised with those stories as a boy.  I was raised with Tolkien, Heman, and X-men as a boy.  I have done a deal of studying mythology on my own, as well, and the Tolkienesque interpretation of Elves and Dwarves appeals to me.  Using orcs may be unoriginal, but I find Joran's "Trollocs" at least as unoriginal (that's a particular bone I have to pick with Jordan—names such as Artur Pendraeg, Bel Tine, Shai'tan, Dha'vol, etc., are all much more bothersome for their real-world similarity than interesting.  I would have preferred he kept "Arthur Pendragon", "Beltane", "Satan", "Devil", etc., than twisting the name just so—as if they were his own).

I cannot do for myself what Tolkien did for himself and be completely "original".  Perhaps an Asian person could, or an African, or a Native American.  But I cannot.  So I do not attempt to.  I world-build, and in great detail, but I build off Tolkien's work, changing it where I feel, adding to it, taking away from it… using it, in other words, somewhat as he used the mythologies that came before.

Anyway, back to my point:  Should it be considered to be "unoriginal" or somehow inferior to world-build a new world which is still quite Tolkienesque?  Or must every Fantasy writer who wants to avoid being tossed in with D&D or Warhammer novels have a completely different arsenal of races and monsters, etc.?

[Spriggan]

way to resurect a year old thread there bucko.

THIRD ITEM:  Don't resurrect old threads.
Newcomers will often scroll through the pages and pages of threads looking for ones that are interesting to them, then post a reply to each one.  The result is that dozens of old topics--ones that the forum community is tired of discussing--suddenly pop back to the top of the thread-order.  This annoys the established members.  I would suggest that rather than looking through old threads, you pay attention to threads that have already been posted on today, and respond to them in an intelligent way.  (Note--your post doesn't have to be brilliant to be worthy of posting.  If it's your genuine opinion, it has value.  Posting an 'intelligent way' means posting in a polite, on-topic manner.)

http://www.timewastersguide.com/boards/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=news;action=display;num=1080380396

read it, worship it, the Forum FAQ is your god.

[Entsuropi]

No need to be harsh spriggan. It's only when people resurrect 18 threads in a go thats annoying.

Plus the guys a warhammer fan! He earns bonus points for that.

[Spriggan]

You're challengeing me!?!  I here by declair a Slapdown!  Are you Scottish enough to accept my challenge or are you Welsh?

[Entsuropi]

What a foolish little boy. Your the boil on my leperous backside, don't make me squish you!

[Spriggan]

At least I'm not Prince Charlie's Pool boy.

[Entsuropi]

Pools? In britain?

/me laughs then puts an umbrella up