Author Topic: Mainstream Fantasy  (Read 14045 times)

Mistress of Darkness

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Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2004, 05:00:57 PM »
I disagree . . . because I don't want the world to be that way.

I'd give a more convincing argument, but I don't read horror and romance. I do think there is difference in mainstream. You've got court fiction (Grisham), and Armed Forces fiction (Clancy), stories like Little Women and Anne of Green Gables. And that's my list, because those are my only readings outside of sf/f.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2004, 05:01:25 PM by Treyva »
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Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2004, 05:13:05 PM »
well, i will just complicate the argument by throwing out what we've discussed before.

Fantasy that  varies from the standard usually gets called something else. No publisher would dare suggest that GLoria Naylor's Mama Day is fantasy, yet most everything that happens in the plot depends on this voodoo magic. HOw is that NOT fantasy?

Eagle Prince

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Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2004, 05:36:42 PM »
I don't quite follow.  You don't want the world to be like what?

Mainstream is kind of broad for a genre.  Just because you can split it up into subgenres doesn't really mean all that much.  Books are also not exactly limited to being in a single genre.  You could have a fantasy story that was just as much a romance.  I just happened to read Fahrenheit 451 last night and was thinking the same thing.  Its a sci-fi, but you could easily put it in other genres.  Same with Planet of the Apes, the Time Machine, or Frankenstein.  Even Anne of Green Gables, would you really be surprised if the library had it in the romance section?

What about the novel White Fang?  How many other mainstream novels are about a boy becoming a man?  Hatchet and Lord of the Flies come to mind, along with several movies like Iron Will.  Do you think people are going to stop writing stories like this, or reading them?  Somehow I doubt its the last we'll see of this theme.

There's so much more to a book than just the plot.  Just because you've read a dozen books about a farmer turned hero doesn't mean they were really all about the same thing.  If we see any widescale change in fantasy, I think it will be writers thinking more about the message they story is about and less about creating some new and unique world, new monsters, or new magic.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2004, 05:38:59 PM by Eagle_Prince »
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Mistress of Darkness

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Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2004, 06:37:44 PM »
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More unique ideas, more creativity?  I just don't really see it.


I don't want the world to be that way.

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Mainstream is kind of broad for a genre.

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Do you really think horror, romance, or mainstream have fewer similarities in their genres?


You named the genre as an example.

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How many other mainstream novels are about a boy becoming a man?


I'd say less than 50%. A coming of age story is also a broader definition of a story than "poor boy saves the world with group of quirky friends." The broad definition of that is usually "epic."
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fuzzyoctopus

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Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2004, 06:44:43 PM »
Izzy, I love you.
I put my vote behind all of that.
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Mistress of Darkness

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Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2004, 07:59:55 PM »
Thanks. :) You were my inspiration for the Anne of Green Gables response.
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Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2004, 08:26:40 PM »
Your idea of a romance is apparently worlds apart from mine.  I also don't find an Epic being limited in scope to a story of rag-tag adventures who save the world from certain doom.  Fantasy is by no means limited to such plot and the entire genre isn't going to change overnight just because X percent of fantasy novels follow such a plot.  It doesn't matter if less than 50% of mainstream books aren't about coming of age, it doesn't nullify the point in any way.  People have told the story for as long as books have been written, and people will continue to tell stories about it.  "We've read it before" isn't going to make the subject fall off the face of the earth.
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Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2004, 08:32:17 PM »
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"We've read it before" isn't going to make the subject fall off the face of the earth.


No, but it might make book sales fall off the face of the earth.
If you're ever in an argument and Entropy winds up looking staid and temperate in comparison, it might be time to cut your losses and start a new thread about something else :)

Fellfrosch

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Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2004, 08:37:27 PM »
Lol.  Yes, the quandary of all artists, how to balance both integrity and the all-important coin.
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fuzzyoctopus

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Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2004, 12:44:19 AM »
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No, but it might make book sales fall off the face of the earth.


Then why hasn't it yet?  The reason it hasn't been changed is because it's still WORKING.  If it's not broke they're not going to fix it.
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Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2004, 06:54:38 AM »
UG!  Too much to respond to!

First, the easy one:

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Can I ask an unrelated question?  EUOL, why do you capitalize all book titles instead of italicize them?  Is that another one of those weird underline-instead-of-italicize things?


That's exactly it.  All caps is the default for a medium that can't italicize or underline, and was often used in the days of typewriters.  Right now, people use it mostly in emails.  (Though that's also the way it was represented in my contracts, incidentally.)  I use it here partially because I'm lazy, and partially because I'm used to it now.  

Okay, now for EP's interesting debate.  (I'll expand on my theories in a bit for you, SE.)   First, let's establish that change is needed.  Let's use this quote as a starting point.

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Eh, no I don't foresee fantasy stories moving away from quests and antiheroes.  Do you really think horror, romance, or mainstream have fewer similarities in their genres?


It's hard to compare fantasy against 'mainstream,' for reasons you have already pointed out.  Let's compare it to something closer to home, instead.  How does fantasy compare to science fiction?

I put forth the supposition that SF is FAR more diverse than fantasy.  It has numerous sub-genres--from cyberpunk, to military SF, to exploration themes.  It is virtually limitless in the topics it deals with.  It has many very rich settings, and it's hard to pin down exactly what the 'stereotypical' SF story is.  That is because the genre is so diverse.

Fantasy could be like this, but it isn't yet.  Right now, it is dominated by a single sub-genre--the Tolkieneque quest epic.  Its settings are rather bland for a genre that could, theoretically, encompass everything.  Yes, the magic systems get original, but how many books out there get away from the stereotypical 'medieval Europe fantasy?'  How many include interesting races that aren't just Tad-Williams-style reworkings of Tolkien races?

This is what I think needs to change.  Actually, I see the magic systems getting very repetitive too.  How many 'telepathy' style or 'elemental' style magic systems are there now?  RUNELORDS and ASSASSIN'S APPRENTICE are both good examples.  

This is, I think, what holds fantasy back--and what makes it less mature of a genre than SF.  I still like reading fantasy, but I think it has growing to do.  Or, perhaps, the audience has some growing to do.  Either way, I think the genre is capable of far more--it isn't stuck like other 'genres' are.  Westerns and Romances are very different from SF/F in my mind.  The previous two are very limited in what they can do, while the latter two are rather unlimited.  That's why I think 'genre' is even too narrow a definition for them.

(My response to SE in the following post.)  


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EUOL

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Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2004, 07:03:02 AM »
Now, on to SE's comment:


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I want you to expand on that, if you don't mind. I mean, the process v. the material.


Of course, though I think MoD already summarized it for me:


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Tolkein created a whole world, a whole mythology, history and languages. I think that's what EUOL is referring to. Rather than just lazily writing in a "fantasy setting", we ought to be sculpting and presenting a fleshed out world and culture.



That is exactly it.  What is fantasy?  To me, it's more than simply 'swords and magic.'  Fantasy is the genre where an author has complete creative license to rework the universe in which he or she writes.  This is the ONLY genre with such complete freedom.

Tolkien did that.  His process was one of extreme creativity, and he developed an entirely new setting, history, and mythology for his characters.  However, instead of learning from what he DID, the authors who followed him learned from what he PRODUCED.  They should have backed up a step, and rather than using LOTR as a model for writing, they should have used Tolkien himself.

This genre means freedom and originality.  Why, then, is it one of the most repetitive genres on the shelves?  We're selling ourselves short in the fantasy genre--by forcing ourselves into thematically similar plots and settings, we are castrating what could be the most original and flavorful of literary genres.

This is changing.  Fantasy, as I mentioned, is only a quarter-century old.  We're learning, and the fans are growing up.  However, it's still probably going to take some time.  Until then, I seem my task as one of balancing--introducing enough originality to push the genre in the direction I prefer, yet retaining enough familiarity to make the fans comfortable.  (Which is important, since the entire point of this all--in my mind--is to bring people joy.)


<wipes brow>  Hum, wow.  If you read all of both posts, you deserve a cookie.  
« Last Edit: April 09, 2004, 07:03:17 AM by EUOL »
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Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2004, 07:16:55 AM »
*Eats Cookie*

I suppose I hadn't considered it that way.  Looking at the genre atm, there doesn't seem to be too far for it to go, before it bombs.  Totally and Completely.

Out of curiosity, what general plot ideas would you present as alternatives to the antihero/quest/growing up/sudden discovery of powers general stories going round atm.  I can easily see how to and design a world, races, etc. but I find it a bit hard come up with an original plot idea.  But that could be because I prefer designing to actual writing at the moment.


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Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2004, 07:48:19 AM »
/me eats cookie too.

NOw, while I agree with EUOL's conception of fantasy's capabilities, I disagree that there is an inevitable and imminant crisis.  I think there's always going to be a market for the standard epic fantasy. The fact that D&D books sell at all show there's a market for even the crud at the bottom of the barrel of this particular sub-genre. This is what fuzzy and others have been saying: just because it's been used a lot does NOT mean it's going to lose popularity any time soon. A 5000 year history of epic quests (this goes back at LEAST as far as Gilgamesh) seems unlikely do die soon.

However, I did say I agree with EUOL. I think that fantasy is capable of far more. I dont' think it's bad to write the epic quest, though the better ones will be as EUOL says, and have unique world building. (it has gotten worse, lately, incidentally, as many people try simply to co-opt the Forgotten Realms or Krynn and change a couple names to pass it off). The problem is when people assume that they can just go without describing the setting, because we'll assume there's a semi-Medieval Europe setting with magic, orcs, and elves thrown in.

The other problem is not to get hung up on the world building and ignore plot and character. This is why fantasy is hard to write. Too many assumptions get made and too many extra requirements are built in.

Incidentally EUOL, this whole discussion makes me thing you might enjoy a short I wrote a few years back. It was only a first draft, and it's a spoof, but let me know if I should email it to you.

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Re: Mainstream Fantasy
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2004, 07:59:53 AM »
Fire it off.  I can respond to it when I respond to your comments on KINGS.

<Response to Outkast coming in a bit.>
« Last Edit: April 09, 2004, 08:00:15 AM by EUOL »
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