Harry Potter and the Decline of the West

[House of Mustard]

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/GG20Aa01.html

It's a fascinating article.  Bizarre at some points, and I can't agree with most of it, but it's very interesting.

[Fellfrosch]

This article makes some very good claims alongside some very weird claims and some outright laughable claims. It's like some hybrid combo of a literature professor and a forum troll.

[Entsuropi]

Goethe's Faust I have long considered the definitive masterwork of Western literature, first of all because its explicit subject is the transformation of character.

No it's not. LoTR is. Obviously.

/me explodes!

[Entsuropi]

I read the article, and found it greatly confusing. It seemed like the guy was determined to push how knowledgeable he was on the reader, rather than to actually make a point.

In fact, i'm not entirely sure what the point is. Internal power is narcissistic, so we should instead have characters who strive. I suppose that makes sense, but both characters he mentioned (skywalker/potter) struggle against those greater than themselves, and constantly learn and struggle. If luke had popped fully formed as a jedi master, then maybe he would have a point. But we all watched him come from a dorky farmhand to that point, and saw him going through yoda's training.

Reading that article mainly highlighted how few of those books he mentioned i've actually read.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

Well, it comes down to this, doesn't it: The author takes the phrase "drawing on inner feelings" and puts his/her own interpretation on it, not bothering at all to look at the context for how that "drawing on" is done. Author equates this to "wallowing in our self," which is not a meaning justified by a reading of EITHER text he/she criticizes. Dumbledore does not instruct Harry to "sit on your ass and just feel good about yourself." Nor does Yoda tell Luke "If it feels good, do it." Both of them counsel their proteges to school their feelings. Yoda specifically warns luke repeatedly about a number of feelings that are not to be indulged. They instruct the student to use their inborn strength to achieve EXTERNAL results. I wonder if this person has really paid attention to either of the texts or just likes to drop names from the classics of western literature.

[Fellfrosch]

I think it comes from the guy's Eastern background, and his inability to read Western literature as an insider--he views all of our literature through a lens of second-hand Christianity, which gives his entire argument a grossly general veneer: "Westerners are Christians who are supposed to believe X, therefore non-X is evil to them, therefore their acceptance of non-X is a sign of laziness and stupidity."

[Entsuropi]

Can you show me where your getting the background info on the guy from?

[Fellfrosch]

I'm extrapolating it from the fact that it's an asian paper and he doesn't seem to know what he's talking about. Though he claims his name is "Spengler," so I could be wrong.

[Mistress of Darkness]

Okay he broke it in the first paragraph by trying too say that Frodo is an ordinary guy and implies that his struggles have nothing to do with his "inborn characteristics." Tolkein points out more than once that the only reason that Frodo can carry the ring and not be overpowered by it is that he is a hobbit. I would definately classify race as an "inborn characteristic." The real irony is that it is the hobbit's rejection of the things of the world (fame, wealth, glory), a.k.a. laziness, that give them that extra resistance to the pull of the ring.