Author Topic: review: The Forever War  (Read 3272 times)

Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: review: The Forever War
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2005, 02:46:59 AM »
Its also worth pointing out that there are plenty of people in the military,... most in fact who live by a higher moral code and have strong standards of right and wrong and that has been true from the days of the minutemen up to today.

Im not implying that everyone did drugs,... only asserting that drug use was a problem in the 1970's in the Army. (it became a problem again in Germany in the 1980's)

Alcohol has been and will probably continue to be the militarys greatest foe,... after the enemy of course.

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The Jade Knight

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Re: review: The Forever War
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2005, 04:21:17 AM »
Alcohol as a problem certainly isn't limited to the military, either.
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Skar

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Re: review: The Forever War
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2005, 05:43:26 PM »
Another thing that people tend to forget about war is that everyone has a different experience.

My father was a platoon leader with the 101st in 1967 and 1968. He also won the Silver Star and a Purple Heart. His personal experience disagrees diametrically with the popular history.  I'm not saying either your dad or mine was right or wrong in how they remember what went on. Everyone's experience was different.

My beef is that the common perception both percieved and proffered is almost totally one-sided.  The mainstream press, who hated the war and the men who fought it for political reasons, almost exclusivel spent their time trading stories with one another in the Saigon bars and writing it home as truth.  I've told the Walter Cronkite anecdote on the forum before, if your interested I'll repeat it.

Now, admittedly, your dad's experience as a pilot was totally different from my father's as a line infantryman.  While pilots were in no way REMFs they spent their down time where all the REMFs hung out.  Not so the grunts.
Nor am I saying that there weren't drugs in VietNam.  It just pisses me off that, according to the mainstream press, and hollywood, and academia, being a VietNam vet is synonymous with being a drug addict.  Our literature, even the SF that obviously draws heavily on the VietNam experience, always portrays the soldier in VietNam as either a struggling drug addict who hates America and deeply resents being called upon to help with the common defense or someone who is even more noble because he is the rare exception to the rule.  It's a wildly skewed perspective and people are still buying it hook line and sinker.  

My father volunteered for VietNam and to this day it just kills him that the people he fought and bled for were abandoned by our government because the partisan press was making it harder for them to get re-elected.  He understood the war and got behind it.  He's not a draftee, I understand the difference.  Now ask yourself why the draftees in WWII, who were away from home for far more time than your average VietNam soldier, had such a different attitude.

I submit that many of the vets who had good experiences, like my father, learned not to talk about it because they got sick of being booed down and vilified by the liberals who disagreed with them and the war enough to do things like spray ovencleaner in the faces of returning wounded veterans.

I apologize Jeff.  I've reread my posts and they sound like I'm trying to bait you.  That's unintentional.  Like I said, I just have a huge chip on my shoulder about VietNam and the perception thereof.  If the Pro-America propoganda that the press indulged in during WWI and WWII was one end of the spectrum, the anti-soldier/anti-america orgy the press perpetrated during VietNam was at the other.  The truth lies in the middle.  Maybe someday it will get aired out.
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: review: The Forever War
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2005, 06:08:19 PM »
well he was a pilot his second tour, he was with the 5th SOG in Lang Vei for his 1st (course that was during Khe Sahn)

As for the baiting thing... not a big deal.

But I do think I have a reason that draftees in WWII dealt with the War better than ones in Vietnam. Winning mattered. Not for pride, or national status, but for millions and millions of people all over the world. The Nazi's and Japanese were on the road to mass murder. People could see daily the effects of their "benevolent" rule in the countries they conquored. Ask Nanking how it feels about the Asian Co-prosperity sphere, or Holland or France how they felt about Nazi rule. And it was a real possability here. I very much feel that WWII was a war against evil unleased on the earth... and I think that many people living then understood that fact all too well.

It had to be fought.

Vietnam it can be debated didnt. Vietnam has a vibrant society, and hasnt suffered as bad as we gloomed and doomed it would. Certainly not as badly as Cambodia or Llaos its neighbors.  Part of that was that the South Vietnamese government was really that corrupt. Yes communism was bad, but the Domino theory obviously didnt exist. If it had, then our loss in Vietnam would have allowed it to continue to spread. Not that I belive that the current Communist system in Vietnam is all that great,... try being a montagneyard there. Still millions werent sent into the ovens in vietnam and I think a lot of people caught on to that. Of couse hindsight is 20/20 and it can be argued that we didnt know about deathcamps or genocide. Still wars feel a lot closer when they happen near Paris or London or Hawaii than they do when they are by Phnom Pen, or Saigon. Sure there were a lot of Unnamed or alien places in WWII, (it was a world war after all) but the end result was concrete... Paris, Berlin, Tokyo, Rome...
« Last Edit: November 11, 2005, 06:24:21 PM by ElJeffe »
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: review: The Forever War
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2005, 06:28:35 PM »
Im not trying to fight with you though.. just musing outloud.
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Entsuropi

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Re: review: The Forever War
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2005, 10:30:41 PM »
Actually it wasn't until very shortly before VE day that the death camps became known. Before that it was scattered reports to high level command, who didn't believe them.
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Fellfrosch

Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: review: The Forever War
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2005, 10:39:02 PM »
actually its come out that high command did belive them... but couldnt do anything about it.
but thats just death camps.
The germans did lots of other scary stuff (like attack Russia and take over France)
We knew what the Japanese were doing. The Rape of Nanking, Korea and the Phillipines plus Pearl Harbor did a lot to galvanize us.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2005, 10:39:25 PM by ElJeffe »
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Skar

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Re: review: The Forever War
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2005, 01:08:01 AM »
Quote
Vietnam it can be debated didnt. Vietnam has a vibrant society, and hasn't suffered as bad as we gloomed and doomed it would. Certainly not as badly as Cambodia or Llaos its neighbors.  


Forgive me but I see very little practical or moral difference between allowing 6 million and 1 million people (at least that many were murdered immediately following our withdrawal) to be slaughtered for political ideology.  The numbers are different but at that scale it's hardly significant.  It was plenty bad after we abandoned them.  And you didn't have to be a montagnard to suffer either.  You just had to be a school teacher or wear glasses or etc... It's exactly the same story you get in all radical communist societies.

But as for the soldiers and civilians not having a handle on the issues at stake (which were functionally the same, helping to defend our allies against a murderous common enemy) you can thank the press, and many American's tendency to swallow whatever the press handed them whole.

Quote
Yes communism was bad, but the Domino theory obviously didnt exist. If it had, then our loss in Vietnam would have allowed it to continue to spread.


Actually, according to current historical thought as taught at BYU in the history classes I took (The professor's main area of emphasis was the Far East, China in particular.) our presence in VietNam for those ten years prevented the Chinese from expanding throughout the pacific rim during and after the war.  During, because they knew we were right there ready for them, they were directly supporting the VietNamese along with the Russians, and after because during those ten years other countries made significant strides toward self-sufficiency.

And for that matter, the khmer rouge conquered Cambodia only because they had North Vietnamese Regulars at their beck and call.  The NVA were used extensively by the communist rebellions in Cambodia and Laos.  Communists supporting each other and spreading their ideology by force to other countries.  Sounds like the domino theory to me.
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The Jade Knight

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Re: review: The Forever War
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2005, 02:22:06 AM »
Murdock?
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: review: The Forever War
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2005, 09:25:22 AM »
Well the Khmer Rouge conquored Cambodia because the CIA (which wasnt in Cambodia to begin with) rigged elections and installed a puppet government sparking off a civil war. They did the Same in Llaos only they kicked off a civil war by creating a new capital and a rival government.

Secondly the only people the vietnamese hate worse than the French are the Chinese. Two Brands of Communism, the Vietnamese brand was a Marxist brand and it was very different than the Maoist Communism of China. Thanks to the Korean war China and Russia were at their own odds and threat of Russian intervention in Vietnam was a greater threat to the Chinese. Remember its the Communist government of Vietnam thats mobilized the Vietnamese army and held it at bay at the Northern Border. Since the early 80's theres beens some pretty bloody fighting, on and off at the border because of it.

As for numbers for genocide in vietnam, we dont have a lot of good ones. And the US numbers stated cant be verified because they are still classified. The best guess is that 3 million people may have died due to revolutionary and counterrevolutionary violence from both sides in 45 years. (both sides being a misnomer because we're talk the French, Viet Minh, The First South Vietnamese regime and the second the Viet Cong, the NVA and The US)

Untill the US declassifies its numbers we wont really know though.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2005, 11:04:11 AM by ElJeffe »
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Skar

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Re: review: The Forever War
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2005, 11:25:33 AM »
All true/unverifiable as you point out.  No objection from me to any of it.  Except you seem to be implying that the fall of Cambodia and Laos did not carry out the predictions of the Domino Theory.  Those kinds of thing were exactly what the domino theory predicted.  The revolutionaries were only able to win against the local governments in Cambodia and Laos, whether it was puppet or not, because they had NVA troops to back them up and do the hard fighting for them.  And those revolutionaries were not created by the CIA.  They were there already.  The CIA may very well have screwed up but the NVA would have given the communists the strength to take over in those countries anyway.  If the military had been allowed to conquer or at least contain them in North VietNam things would have been very different in that part of the world today.  Almost certainly for the better.

China did not have a free hand to expand through conquest in the pacific rim because we were in VietNam.

And whether the Vietnamese hate the Chinese or not, they accepted money, weapons and advisors from them while they were fighting us.  And also from the Russians.  The enemy of your enemy is my friend and all that.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2005, 11:26:44 AM by Skar »
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: review: The Forever War
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2005, 12:13:34 PM »
shrug...

I think the big problem is that we refused to understand why communism took hold there in the first place. Initially it was a nationalistic impulse and the result of Japanese conquest, but became more endearing to the popualtion (im talking about south vietnam here) because of crushing debt and antiquated rent laws (the french didnt exactly practise "enlightened rule" outside of France) that kept people in rural and urban areas astoundingly poor. Early on a restructuring of rent and tax laws to favor the majority of the people could have prevented the "revolution" from taking hold.

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