Author Topic: The Two Towers - *Spoilers*  (Read 9487 times)

Spriggan

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Re: The Two Towers - *Spoilers*
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2003, 01:08:34 AM »
desrsevers, maybe.  But if you give him a nodd then you'll have to start giveing people nomanations for being in disney cartoons.  It's just wont happen.
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Fellfrosch

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Re: The Two Towers - *Spoilers*
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2003, 12:32:51 PM »
I have to agree that Serkis won't get an Emmy or even a nomination for Gollum, mainly because Emmies are for TV. I'm fairly hopeful about an Oscar nomination, though--I don't think it's as far-fetched as Spriggan says (I admit it's a long shot, just not that long of a long shot).

I haven't seen the FF movie, so I can't discuss it, but I have seen the Star Wars movies and for the life of me I can't remember a CG character in either that looked as good as Gollum. He's more detailed, interacts better with his environment, and occupies space as well as any human actor. There were several times I actually forgot he was CG, and nothing in Star Wars was that good. The acting was definitely the best part, but the animation is pretty amazing as well.

(As far as straight looks, I think Treebeard looks even more real. They used a model for a lot of that, though, so I guess that's cheating.)
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Nicadymus

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Re: The Two Towers - *Spoilers*
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2003, 03:52:28 PM »
I suppose I can see where Spriggan is coming from.  If Serkis does get the nod it would open the door to actors playing the voices in animated movies.  The one thing that may counteract Spriggan's point is that Serkis also modeled all of the movements upon which the CG character was generated.  Is that enough to seperate the animated voice-overs from his performance?  I don't know.   :-/
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Fellfrosch

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Re: The Two Towers - *Spoilers*
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2003, 05:47:43 PM »
That's a good point. I don't know either.
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Slant

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Re: The Two Towers - *Spoilers*
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2003, 08:26:09 PM »
I think Gollum will win an oscar.  Maybe not for actor Andy Serkis, but certainly for special effects  and cinematography.  Andy Serkis MIGHT even get a nod for best supporting actor, since the role WAS based on his movements and facial features being recorded and tthen later replaced with CGI.  Plus, Gollum has a powerful union.  I'm sure that between Yoda and Dobby they could "arrange" for Gollum to win.
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Spriggan

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Re: The Two Towers - *Spoilers*
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2003, 11:17:36 AM »
but so is alot of disney stuff (they film the actors moving and talking) and all GCI stuff is motion captured.  So everyone in shreck, Starwars Final Fantasy, monsters Inc was motion captured.  It's so much cheeper and quicker to do that then straight animation in the program.  And I know all you fan boys would love to see him nominated but it will never happen.  Gollum is nothing special when it comes to CGI characters.  Let's put it this way if Jar-Jar had the same quality of dialoug (thus not being annoying) Gollum would be second rate.  Jar-Jar is a much higher quality of CGI.  More minute detail, way better done.  He's just fricking annoying.  Gollum is well done nothing new CGI wise.  Just ask your self this "if Gollum wasn't cgi and just a live actor do you think he would get nominated?"  I just think no.  He's good but nothing outstanding.  There are better actors in the series (well most of the actors in the movie are realy good).  like Aragorn, i think he deserves an nomination before gollum.  .i've listed my reasons and you all know I'm right the academy will never nominate a motion capture actor (which isn't considered real acting sence they don't caputure facial expressions at the time they do the motion).  I think people are just looking at a good actor as CGI and say "wow" but if you take away the CGI people would say, "ya he was good" but never mention a oscar nod. Yes Two towers will win Best special effects but not for Gollum.  They'll win for the CGI battle scenes at helms deap  (which all most all of those orc,goblis and uru-kai are GCI, and that's never been done in a movie before) and the ents battle.  Those were amazing.  their only compition is Episode 2 which was well done (the speeder chase in the city, that was cool and all CGI no models) but i think Two Towers will win for the CGI battle simulaor the used.
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Nicadymus

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Re: The Two Towers - *Spoilers*
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2003, 12:06:16 PM »
Spriggan does offer several good points in this on going debate about the qualifications of Gollum as an Oscar nominee.  I now, having considered the requirements for being nominated for an Oscar, let alone winning won, have extreme doubts about Serkis/Gollum being nominated for an acting Oscar.  But I feel that Gollum's character will be a factor in whether or not TTT gets the Oscar nod for special effects.  Yes, the battle scenes are also a huge portion of the reason I feel that TTT will be nominated for that award, but I just can't see them ignoring Gollum in thier considerations due to the amount of time his character was on screen.
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Fellfrosch

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Re: The Two Towers - *Spoilers*
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2003, 12:33:15 PM »
I understand where you're coming from Sprig, but I just don't agree with most of your points. I think the CG used for Gollum was miles ahead of Jar-Jar (and Watto, who was even better) in quality, believability, and realism. He interacts better with the environment and the other characters. I hold no hope that he will win an Oscar, and since he was passed over for the Golden Globes (historically more accepting of new ideas), he probably won't be nominated either. If he is, though, I won't be surprised--it's not a very strong possibility, but I think it could happen.

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Nicadymus

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Re: The Two Towers - *Spoilers*
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2003, 12:45:55 PM »
Hey Spriggan, what are your thoughts on why the stopped the Battle at Helms Deep when they did?  Money, timing, what?  I am not as knowledgable about CGI battle simulators, so I don't know how difficult it would be to add to what they had already constructed.  What are your thoughts?
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Spriggan

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Re: The Two Towers - *Spoilers*
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2003, 01:23:42 PM »
probaly because of time restraints.  Not because of costs.  I haven't read the books so i don't know how much longer it goes.  On the expanded edition of the dvd it will be longer.  But one last think on the Jar-jar gollum thing.  Your right that Gollum fits in better with the people.  But i think the reason why is he was the only gci character.  I think that in the new starwars the humans stand out more because there's more gci characters and scenery, so it looks a little like they don't fit.  There's not that problem in LOTR.

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Kid_Kilowatt

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Re: The Two Towers - *Spoilers*
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2003, 02:07:34 PM »
I'm more than a little baffled by the "Jar Jar was better" argument.  Jar Jar was not just crippled by bad dialogue - he looked and acted like he was made out of rubber, the character design was overly simplistic (vest and bell-bottoms?), and he never interacted with other characters realistically.  What was most damaging in Jar Jar's case, and this is true of most CGI characters, was that the light and shadow did not fit him in the scene with the other characters.  This is the hardest part of putting CGI characters in live-action scenes, and it's often responsible for people saying that it just doesn't look right without knowing why.  Getting the ambient and multiple-source lighting in the right places and at the right levels so that it hits the CGI characters the same way as the others just hasn't been perfected yet.  And in Jar Jar's case, it looked like they didn't even try too hard (a la Roger Rabbit).

The contrasts between Jar Jar and Gollum are just too glaring.  Jar Jar has a rubbery physiology with a poorly defined musculature and a uniform-color, shiny skin.  Gollum has a papery skin with mottled shades, tufts of hair, scars, and birthmarks - he has a well-defined musculature that flexes realistically with movements.  No contest.

Jar Jar has a mostly static face that is capable of exaggerated, cartoony expressions but not subtle changes.  Gollum, on the other hand, has an almost-human face that is capable of subtle changes in  human expressions (better than the cross-eyed and stroke-victim-like faces in Final Fantasy: The Spirit Without) AND exaggerated emoting.  In addition, he has pupils that dilate and contract and he is capable of displaying changes in dominant personality simply by changes in facial features.  No contest.

In Phantom Menace, both Obiwan and Quiggon have difficulty addressing Jar Jar directly - when they do, it often looks like they are looking at a point a foot in front of or behind his face.  They are obviously trying to focus on a tennis ball where his head should be, but it doesn't work well.  Jar Jar's physical interactions with live-action characters are very limited, and they look pretty bad when they happen, so he sticks with interacting with inanimate objects (the pod racer) and other CGI characters (battle droids).  Gollum's interactions with other characters are not flawless, but they are much better (a level above what we saw with Dobby earlier this year).  Take, for example, Gollum's first scene, where Sam and Frodo wrestle Gollum to the ground and Gollum fights back viciously.  The interaction in this scene is quite impressive, as Gollum seems to have real weight and pushes against the other characters, kicking Sam off him at one point.  Grappling requires full-body contact on a level that has never even been tried with CGI characters, and Gollum pulls it off with surprising realism.  No contest.  

Jar Jar never quite fits in with the lighting in SW:PM, and it largely has to do with his very shiny rubber skin that reflects a lot of light.  ILM just didn't put a lot of work into the lighting on Jar Jar, though, and he looks like he's standing in consistent ambient light in a lot of scenes.  At least WETA made a good effort with Gollum, particularly in his first scene, as he climbs down the cliff in the moonlight.  The blue undertones and shadows are just right for the scene.  The work is not as good in other scenes (as in Osgiliath) where he seems to be standing in brighter light than the other characters, but it's still light-years ahead of the work on Jar Jar.  Again, no contest.

As for supporting noms for Andy Serkis, I don't think that the Globe nominations mean much because New Line's PR campaign for Serkis is just ramping up and focuses particularly on the Oscar noms.  I think that it is largely a stunt, serving to make the point that Serkis' work on Gollum is so far ahead of past CGI work that it can be considered realistically for a nomination.  I don't think he'll get it (and I don't think he particularly deserves it based on the great supporting roles of this year), but the campaign makes its point well and shows that WETA's work on Gollum is impressive.  Even if Dobby or Jar Jar were given better scripts and larger parts, they would be laughed out of the room in any Oscar talk because they just aren't "real" enough for serious consideration of any kind.    

Fellfrosch

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Re: The Two Towers - *Spoilers*
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2003, 06:55:39 PM »
Well, I'd kind of hoped to end the discussion, but thank you to Kilowatt for a detailed and articulate version of what I was trying to explain.

However, I've been on this forum long enough to know that this discussion is on the verge of name-calling--I can feel the rants tingling in the air. So please, let's leave it amicable (and please, nobody touch Spriggan's monkey).
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Nicadymus

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Re: The Two Towers - *Spoilers*
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2003, 02:03:05 PM »
Don't worry Fell. Nobody was going to touch Spriggan's Monkey.   ;D
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Re: The Two Towers - *Spoilers*
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2003, 02:33:36 PM »
Sigh...I was...

Kid_Kilowatt

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Re: The Two Towers - *Spoilers*
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2003, 03:13:10 PM »
I didn't really knowing I was reopening an unpleasant can of worms with my comments in CGI (the Sprockets reference didn't seem THAT definitive) - I just felt that it was something that had to be said.  I can't abide anyone anywhere ever saying anything good about Jar Jar Binks - so sue me.

Well, I'm going to open another unpleasant can of worms - by defending Peter Jackson's most grievous heresies in Two Towers, namely the changes in Faramir's character and Frodo's attempted surrender at Osgiliath.  I've read some of Jackson's defenses of the changes, and I think that they make sense.  It basically boils down to this - nothing much happens to Frodo and Sam during Two Towers.  There are three major events in that storyline during the second book: meeting Gollum, the abduction by Faramir, and the confrontation with Shelob.  First, Jackson did the right thing by moving Shelob back to the third movie, in my opinion.  There is not enough other stuff going on in the Frodo thread for it to be the central part of the second movie, so it makes sense to put Aragorn in the foreground instead.  As a result, the climax has to lie with the Aragorn thread - it would be weird to suddenly cut to Frodo and Shelob or, worse, intersperse the Shelob sequence bit by bit into Helm's Deep.  By pushing Shelob back, it helps put the spotlight back on Frodo for the third book, where Aragorn doesn't do as much, disappearing to the south for a while and then reappearing for the battle at the end.

That leaves you with two events in the Frodo storyline, both of which are kind of slight.  The taming of Gollum is largely character development, lacking any significant tension beyond the first confrontation.  And the meeting with Faramir is pretty weak too - it sets Faramir up as an unrealistic paragon of a character who disappears for the rest of the story (waking up at the end to marry Eowyn).  He "kidnaps" Frodo and Sam but realizes right away that he was wrong and becomes their new best friend.  He is also not tempted by the Ring at all, which is at odds with Tolkien's premise that it tempts everyone.  Galadriel is a centuries-old Ringbearer sorceress, and she is tempted all to heck, but Faramir just shrugs and says, "I wouldn't pick it up if I saw it by the side of the road."  Huh?  [Cont'd]