Author Topic: Return of the King SPOILERS (Read 10991 times)

« **Reply #60 on:** December 30, 2003, 02:45:56 PM »

you COULD, but I think you'd be ignoring certain elements. The best Biblical comparison would probably be Esther, who ALSO marries outside of the faith but is a great heroine because of it. In the movies, especially, Aragorn could not do all he did without Arwen's aid. It's is because of the relationship he has with her that he has the strength and will to do what he must. IOW, if he didn't hook up with Arwen, he might have failed at much of what he did. So even if she did marry out of the covenant, the result of that "disobedience" was the salvation of the world. So I don't think it's safe to look at her as so wicked like that and still keep it all in context.

Fellfrosch · « **Reply #61 on:** December 30, 2003, 02:48:40 PM »

Kind of kicks the legs out from under the whole romance, doesn't it? At least from a Mormon perspective.

I do think you have some good points about faith and strength, MoD, especially in light of one of our discussions in the book thread: women don't have to become masculine in order to be heroic or strong. Even by that measure, however, her strength is basically just standing there and telling Aragorn he's the bomb: if Arwen were out there holding a family together in the midst of horrible trials (like Mary Smith) it would be a little more impressive than lying on a chaise and griping to her dad.

That said, I really don't think that Aragorn could have done what he did without Arwen's support and belief. I'm just saying that I, myself, would have definitely chosen Eowyn.

« **Reply #62 on:** December 30, 2003, 02:52:27 PM »

then I think you'd be shallow Fell, since you appear to be basing that entirely on what happens in the story and not on the long term previous relationship. You'd throw that away knowing what she has done and will be just because she hasn't killed a Nazgul lately?

*edit* I find myself sounding aggressive in a lot of the threads lately. Note that I don't feel aggression, so try to edit that feeling out if you sense it. okithx

House of Mustard · « **Reply #63 on:** December 30, 2003, 02:59:19 PM »

Quote

You'd throw that away knowing what she has done and will be just because she hasn't killed a Nazgul lately?

Once again, I say that this just doesn't work (in the context of the movie): We don't know what she has done and will be, so why should we, the audience, care?

And the Esther comparison is weak: Esther did stuff. Arwen just bouys Aragorn up by hanging around.

Fellfrosch · « **Reply #64 on:** December 30, 2003, 02:59:45 PM »

If I'm placing myself into that situation, rather than Aragorn, then my decision would be inherently shallow--I have no previous relationship with either woman, whereas Aragorn does. Of course, I'd try to take them out on some dates first, and get to know them a little better, but that would be kind of hard, given that Arwen is leaving. Maybe if she came along on the Fellowship I could get to know while fighting orcs at the same time...but then if Eowyn joined the Fellowship as well that would be really awkward. Dating must be hard for epic heroes.

House of Mustard · « **Reply #65 on:** December 30, 2003, 03:02:13 PM »

I sense Fell's next cross-genre novel coming on.

« **Reply #66 on:** December 30, 2003, 03:04:03 PM »

Which is something that RPG World looks at. Yeah. But if we're being shallow, I'd still take Arwen, since even if she's eventually going to die, she's going to stay young looking longer than Eowyn (plus, I'm into brunettes, and I'm not just saying that because my wife is one).

This is really weird, accusing someone of being shallow because he's picking the girl who initially seems to have more depth and character...

Fellfrosch · « **Reply #67 on:** December 30, 2003, 03:10:20 PM »

Would you really want the one who won't age? Because you'll be aging, and eventually she'll want someone younger. But if she's not as shallow as we are, I guess that's not a problem

« **Reply #68 on:** December 30, 2003, 03:12:34 PM »

woah, wait? she's allowed to be shallow to? I'll have to rethink this.

but I don't think I have worries. She made the call when I wasn't there and lots of nancy elves were, so she's already shown loyalty. Besides, I'd be king, right? I'll just have a harem if she's unfaithful.

EUOL · « **Reply #69 on:** December 30, 2003, 03:13:23 PM »

I'm going to have to backtrack on my post on the other thread, where I said I don't like blondes. Usually I don't, but in this case I'd pick Eowyn--but only based on the movies, since that's what I've experienced most recently.

Eowyn just feels more real to me. Arwen is too...elfy. Even if I separate out the Liv Tyler, I'd rather be with someone who didn't feel so...well...elfy.

But, one thing we have to decide is whether we're arguing who we would have picked, or who we would have picked if we'd been Aragorn. I think Arwen is good for him--he's larger than life, like her, and it's a good match.

« **Reply #70 on:** December 30, 2003, 03:17:32 PM »

We don't have to decide anything of the sort. We can argue both. Though I agree with you that she was best for Aragorn.

However, I think you're just prejudiced against elves. Though I think you could make a successful comic on Keenspot about how elves are so skilled and amazing at everything

... except when it comes to marriage relations. I mean, when was the last time you saw a happily married elf? Maybe they're bad in bed or can't cook or sew or even have a good conversation if they're not talking about how humans suck and Sauron's going to destroy the world.

Mistress of Darkness · « **Reply #71 on:** December 30, 2003, 04:36:04 PM »

Galadriel seemed quite happy.

Now, wait, what do you mean Ester "did stuff"? She married a king, knowing that if she reveiled to him her religion and heritage he would probably off her. Great deeds to be sure. But I don't really think that Arwen's running toward Rivendall with Frodo, the nine Ring Wraiths at her back was much to sneeze at. She showed courage of a different type.

And I think you are Liv Tylering it when you say Arwen did little but sit around griping at her dad. She told her dad she wanted to marry this guy, and Elrond lied to her, so she agreed, for love of her father, to follow his wishes, until the vision of her son convinced her that she should stay.

House of Mustard · « **Reply #72 on:** December 30, 2003, 05:40:05 PM »

Yeah, but Esther risked death by revealing that she was jewish, and then she pled with what's his name to spare everybody's life. Arwen just hangs out and inspires Aragorn to greatness.

And the saving Frodo doesn't cut it for me: that should have been Glorfindl.

Fellfrosch · « **Reply #73 on:** December 30, 2003, 06:31:05 PM »

I think Elves must be very bad in bed, or they'd have overpopulated Middle Earth long ago. Look at Elrond--he's thousands of years old, and he only has three kids? They either gestate for centuries, or they just don't do a lot of reproducing. After ten thousand years, even the best contraceptive system is going to fail enough times to give Elrond ten or twelve kids.

42 · « **Reply #74 on:** December 30, 2003, 07:37:25 PM »

I think Elves must have breeding seasons, like most animals. They only go into heat during a certain decade or so.

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