Author Topic: Revenge of the Sith -- Spoilers!  (Read 9370 times)

Fellfrosch

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Revenge of the Sith -- Spoilers!
« on: May 19, 2005, 03:46:48 PM »
Saw it, loved it, excellent movie. It was an ideal way to end the series, connect the trilogies, and tie up a great many loose ends. And it was so perfectly tragic.

If I may be permitted to pick a few nits:

(There were very few things I disliked about this movie, but, being a fanboy, I am compelled to discuss them)

Chewbacca showing up was lame. He didn't do anything, and it added nothing to the character except for some unwieldy baggage about how Chewie used to be a war hero. There is nothing in his character in Eps 4-6 to suggest that he has ever fought nobly as the second-in-command of a wookie army, or that he has any experience with the jedi at all, let alone Yoda. Chewbacca is, at best, a beloved sidekick who has never had anything approaching a character arc. Now he has one, and it doesn't go anywhere, and it's stupid. It might have worked if he had been in the background as a young wookie mechanic, but as a leader in the army he was out of place. Fan service is one thing, but changing the entire nature of a character is going too far.

Padme dies? But Leia remembers her mother, and how sad she was! Everyone has always thought she was talking about Padme--are we to believe that Luke was earnestly questioning her about her adoptive mother? Why did he care? If Leia is not talking about Padme, the entire point and impact of that scene is undermined and destroyed. Lame-o to the max.

If either Anakin or Obi-Wan had remembered that they knew how to shove people with the force, that lava fight would have been a heck of a lot shorter. It's like Superman on the Superfriends--you can shoot lasers out of your eyes, you moron! Do it! I suppose Obi-Wan's reluctance to force-shove could be attributed to his lack of will to actually kill Anakin (which was a very cool plot point, by the way, and a remarkbly strong character attribute that resonates throughout the 6 movies). So I can excuse that one.

Now, if I may be allowed to speculate:

The business at the end with Yoda telling Obi-Wan that he could learn how to live forever was very interesting, and a nice explanation of how the two of them are able to disapparate when they die instead of just falling down like all the other jedi. The inclusion of Qui-Gon in that discussion, however, was the real kicker--why bring him back in? Was there something about his death that I missed in the first movie? Are they planning to do something with him in the future: say, in one of the TV series? Palpatine's declaration that "only one person has learned how to conquer death" seems, in hindsight, like yet another reference to Qui-Gon. Intriguing.
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Dex1138

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Re: Revenge of the Sith -- Spoilers!
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2005, 04:25:36 PM »
The inclusion of Qui-Gon in that discussion, however, was the real kicker--why bring him back in?
Someone would have to teach Obi-Wan. Yoda was heading off to the bayou. There was much speculation if Qui-Gon would show up in Ep3. IMO, it would have been a nicer scene if he did ghost in, probably a little more emotional as well.
Being the EU junkie I am, I don't remember where exactly, but I'm pretty sure Yoda and maybe even Obi have spoken with/heard Qui-Gon's spirit. We do hear his voice when Anakin wipes out the Tusken camp in Ep2.
Perhaps his meditation while waiting for the energy wall to open in TPM was a preparation for his "spirit"? Ben also appears to do a little meditaion in ANH before he lets Vader strike him.

or that he has any experience with the jedi at all, let alone Yoda.
I always secretly thought when Ben is talking to Chewie in the cantina that they seemed like they knew each other.

Padme dies? But Leia remembers her mother
My write-off on this is that being Force-sensitive herself, perhaps Leia has some pre-natal memories of mom. Pregnant people talk, sing and play music  to their babies all the time.
Time for some revisionist history I suppose ;)

Imagine getting this holo-transmission:
"Hi, Owen? This is Jedi Master Kenobi. You don't know me, but I was friends with your half-brother, Anakin. He went a little crazy and Padme died, so will you bring up his son in seclusion?"

I have a few geeky nits to pick as well:

If they bother to cast Mon Mothma and Tarkin, why not at least give them a line? Probably ended up on the cutting room floor.

If we have to endure the Tarzan yell again, give us some Wookiees ripping droids arms out of their sockets. I hear they've been known to do that. And as much as I love Chewie, there really was no need for him to be involved.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2005, 04:27:23 PM by Dex1138 »

Fellfrosch

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Re: Revenge of the Sith -- Spoilers!
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2005, 05:23:05 PM »
I didn't hear the Tarzan yell, but ripping droid arms out of their sockets would have been a great inclusion.

I thought about Leia having pre-natal memories, but I don't buy it. Luke is about a jillion times more force sensitive than Leai, so why is she the one to remember?
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EUOL

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Re: Revenge of the Sith -- Spoilers!
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2005, 05:29:54 PM »
Biggest problem:

I didn't buy Anakin's fall to the dark side.  The moment where he 'changed' wasn't emotional enough for me.  He didn't give into his anger.  I really wanted something that resonated with the ending of ep6.  

The way he stopped Windu from killing Palpatine was nice, but I didn't buy him then swearing allegiance and going to kill children off of that moment.

The best of the first three, for certain, but I still liked #2, and I don't think this one was leaps ahead of it.  Perhaps it boils down to me not really wanting to watch a show about a hero who falls to the dark side--especially when I know it's going to happen the whole time.
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Spriggan

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Re: Revenge of the Sith -- Spoilers!
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2005, 05:58:08 PM »
Here's how I take Anakins fall.

You'll notice that both after he helps kill Windu and kills the other and speretists you can see how regretfull he is (he's crying both times), He then feels that there's no going back.  He wants to save Padame, which the Emperor says he could do, so he needs the Emperor and yet he knows he's doing things that are wrong.  But he's allready started down the slippery slope and feels he cannot go back and change the mistakes he's allready made so he has to learn what the Emperor knows and then get rid of him (anakin admits the Emperor is evil) and then he'll be able to make everyone's lives better.
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Re: Revenge of the Sith -- Spoilers!
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2005, 06:04:16 PM »
When I came out of the theater for episode 1 and episode 2, I had good feelings. I felt I had an overall positive experience. Later I recognized various problems, but I still liked them.

I'm not so sure about episode 3. I came out of it feeling disappointed, mainly because I didn't buy the turn to the dark side.

Bugged me:

Anakin's turn didn't seem to have sufficient motivation. However...it could be that he was just still too immature, never really grew up, didn't have a healthy relationship where impending doom could be dealt with in a rational manner like...getting a good hospital...umm...

Also bugged:

Travel to anywhere in the galaxy now takes just minutes?

Those babies were way huge, especially for premies...Padme was not THAT big...

Palpatine's face makeup without the hood on was really bad and fake-looking.

Dooku died way too easily! He sat there and let himself be decapitated? No force push? No disbelief at his lord betraying him?

Liked:

Palpatine's acting and manipulation. He said just the right things. He had control of everything, contacts all over the place... The Jedi being so incompetent in that area makes it seem possible that they were indeed wrong with other areas such as their don't-form-relationships policy, the absence of which would have made Anakin a much more socially adjusted person...

Grievous. Though he lost his extra hands way too quickly. But the rest of his fight with Obi-Wan was cool.

R-2 wasn't memory wiped.

The last 2 big fights were good.

Question:

How did Palpatine know Anakin was worried about Padme dying? Did he:

1. bug Padme's apartment
Entirely possible. I think he probably did have it bugged.

2. Read Anakin's mind.
Sure.

3. Plant the visions into Anakin's mind in the first place.
Also seems entirely possible.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2005, 06:12:47 PM by OoklaTheMok »
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Re: Revenge of the Sith -- Spoilers!
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2005, 06:06:45 PM »
Also thought I'd add that somehow SE's favourte blue skinned Jedi Female survives, back at Celebration 3 the actress that players her confirmed she was going to be in the TV series and survived the Clone betrayal.
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Fellfrosch

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Re: Revenge of the Sith -- Spoilers!
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2005, 06:58:53 PM »
Really? That's interesting, because I thought she might be a good one for the series--you don't get a busty jedi babe in a sports bra and low-riders and then just kill her off. And because she was shot underneath a giant glowing flower (that planet was trippy) we didn't actually see her die.

I thought Anakin's fall was very well done, and for many of the reasons Sprig already mentioned. Once he stopped Mace from killing Palpatine he knew there was no going back--I think, in fact, that as soon as he jumped in his ship to follow Mace he knew there was no going back. You can't really point to a specific moment of him "falling," because he's been falling since Episode 1.

It was nice, though, that we got to see him doing some good and noble things, like turning in Palpatine in the first place.
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Eagle Prince

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Re: Revenge of the Sith -- Spoilers!
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2005, 07:06:48 PM »
The Emperor creeped me out, he was evil and sick looking.  Vader was maybe even more creepy, especially when he was lying on the ground and telling Obi-Wan that he hated him.  His eyes were all glowing red and then he lit on fire, it was sick.  It was cool, but creeped me out a lot cause it was so evil looking.

I'll try to explain the Qui-Gon Jinn part.  When someone dies, they return to the Force.  They become part of the Force.  There is no personality left or anything like that, sort of like Taoism if you're familiar with that.  Well when Anakin went psycho on the tusken raiders, he did something bizzaro with the Force, and somehow pulled Qui-Gon's personality back out of the Force and he is now a disembodied being.  He talked to Anakin, but he was too anger to hear him.  He also talked to Yoda when the old man was meditating.  Eventually Qui-Gon told Yoda that he had figured out how to live on after death, and with practice possibly be able to live on with a body as well (unlike Qui-Gon).  At that point, Yoda realises that Qui-Gon knows more about the Force, and so him and Obi-Wan become his apprentices to learn this new stuff.

But some of my questions.  What do you think about the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise?  'He could directly influence the midi-chlorians to create life'  So did Plagueis create Anakin with this?  That is what it sounds like.  Sideous also said that Plagueis could save other people from death, but not himself.  Interesting that the light side of the Force can give an individual immortality... am I reading too much into that, or is this actually right?  Dark side can save others from death but not yourself, and the light side can grant yourself immortality but not others?
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Re: Revenge of the Sith -- Spoilers!
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2005, 07:10:18 PM »
It's also worth noteing that originaly in EP2 Qui-gon was going to be showen screaming "anakin no!" as a spirit but at the time Lyam Nealson couldn't schedule any time to come in to film the part.
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Fellfrosch

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Re: Revenge of the Sith -- Spoilers!
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2005, 07:18:39 PM »
Regarding the force spirit thing, EP, I don't believe you. It sounds implausible that Anakin would just randomly pull Qui-Gon out of the ether; if you have canonical sources I'd like to see them.

As for Plaguis the Wise (who seemed pretty implicitly to be Sidious's former mentor), the mention of using midi-chlorians to create life seems like a pretty direct reference to Anakin's allegedly immaculate conception. Maybe he was so wise that he created Anakin specifically to fulfill the prophecy and bring balance to the force--knowing that his apprentice Darth Sidious would play into his plan, however unwittingly. Plaguis was another part of the movie that seemed ripe for explanation in the TV show, so maybe we'll hear more about him.
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Eagle Prince

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Re: Revenge of the Sith -- Spoilers!
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2005, 07:19:23 PM »
Where did you hear that?  I thought he was always supposed to be just disembodied... maybe not then.  But Obi-Wan is just a voice in episode IV, so it seems it would at least take awhile to gain a body.  Qui-Gon did not learn the secret until after death... otherwise they would not have made a point to show his body being burned in episode I.  Hmm, interesting.
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Re: Revenge of the Sith -- Spoilers!
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2005, 07:24:02 PM »
EP2 audio commentary.  Lucas says they originaly were going to have Qui-gon appear as a spirit to Anakin there.
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Eagle Prince

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Re: Revenge of the Sith -- Spoilers!
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2005, 07:31:45 PM »
Quote
Regarding the force spirit thing, EP, I don't believe you. It sounds implausible that Anakin would just randomly pull Qui-Gon out of the ether; if you have canonical sources I'd like to see them.


I never said it was random... I have a vague idea of how it happened.  I don't know why you think I am just making stuff up, but here... "He didn't tell Mace the rest of it, that somehow Anakin's rush of agony manifesting int he Force had tapped into the spirit of the dead Jedi Master who had discovered him.  Too muchc was happening here.
...
"Anakin, too, had heard the voice of Qui-Gon, imploring him to restrain himself, to deny the rage.  He hadn't recognized it, thought, for he was too full of pain and anger." that is on page 276 of Episode II novel.
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Fellfrosch

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Re: Revenge of the Sith -- Spoilers!
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2005, 07:38:31 PM »
I don't think you're making it up, I just don't believe it. Thanks for the novel quote, I might have to look that up.
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