Author Topic: Casting Defensively  (Read 1720 times)

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Casting Defensively
« on: September 30, 2003, 04:59:17 PM »
Ok, this is something in d20 that always bugged me. I can't change the rules for it in AORP (at least, not without some notice), but I want to hear what other people think.

Casting a spell provokes an attack of opportunity (from now on, AOO).
However, the spell is only disrupted if a) the attack hits you and b) you fail a save against a save of 10+spell level + damage (in hp).
Now, at first level, it's safe to assume that the average damage from an attack will be around 4, I think, but for the purposes of this example, we'll use 6, to make it more difficult. So your average difficulty is going to be 17.
A spellcaster with skill focus (concentration) and max ranks, plus a healthy Con (not unreasonable, it'd be the second or third most important attribute for most casters) of 14, could have a plus 8 to this roll at first level. which means he has a better than 50% chance of beating the difficulty, needing to roll a 9 or above for success.
It's even less of a threat if you have the Combat Casting feat (and human spellcasters can easily have both feats at first level), which gives you another +4 for Defensive casting. In this case, the DC is 15+spell level. Which already gives you a better chance, figure in the Combat casting, and you only need to roll a 4 or better to cast a first level spell, no matter what foe you face.

In other words, I don't think there's a significant threat to a spell caster who just stands there casting anything he wants in the middle of combat. Even if he's facing something that can do lots of damage. He has a better chance of doing damage and no worries that he'll lose spells.

Probably this doesn't bother most of you, but I like magic to be difficult to the flavor of the campaign. Probably I'll be removing the ability to cast defensively in future campaigns.

42

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Re: Casting Defensively
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2003, 02:32:44 AM »
Yes, I think SE your getting whiny.

I should point out that casting defensively is primarily a D&D thing. It doesn't show up in a lot of other d20 products, mostly because spell casting isn't an option.

Also, I've found out while running my current campaign that running a D&D game that makes spellcasting difficult is really hard. A lot of D&D is based on a lot of magic and magic rules. Things like weather conditions, injuries, social stigmas, laws of physics, and other basic needs take a backseat to the spells, magic items and monsters.

Also, players don't actually like ot think of their characters being impaired. It's really hard to imagine what you can and can't do when your character gets hurt. For example, I've dislocated my knee a few times. When I first dislocated it I couldn't do anything and I limb for months after my kneecap was put back in. Now, when I dislocate my knee I just pop it in myself and keep going. People react differently to pain, which makes creating rules about being distracted or losing concentration difficult to measure.
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The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: Casting Defensively
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2003, 09:50:49 AM »
See, it's the high frequency of high powered magic that makes D&D such a ridiculous setting. It messes up the economy, the social development, and the believeability of the encounters.

I'm trying to find a way to lower the magic power without re-writing whole sets of rules. And I don't see why running it would be very hard. Yes, NPC spellcasters would be just as impaired, but they have time to prepare for invading players, and with a combination of limited use items and pre-combat cast spells, you've got soemthing that will work.

Players who don't want to be impaired can try using something other than a spellcaster. If you introduce the rule before they make characters, then they really don't have anything to complain about.

As for the dislocated knee example. When you dislocate your knee in the middle of running, do you keep running? Or do you stop to relocate it? It sounds to me like you pause to relocate. The problem is not how they react long-term to a wound, or even how they react for the first minute or 30 seconds. We're talking about the immediate effect of something bad happening. It's an instantaneous matter, not a question of whether they can recover..

And incidnetally, the ease of avoiding distraction only gets easier. Your ranks in Concentrate advance twice as fast as spell levels.

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Re: Casting Defensively
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2003, 10:00:22 AM »
There is a solution. It's called "play WHFRP". Thats low magic fantasy.
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Fellfrosch

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Re: Casting Defensively
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2003, 10:36:49 AM »
Decipher's LOTR is a better system than that by far. But my point is something easy to get into and with a magic system that actually WORKS. ie, I want people to know how to play already, and be comfortable with the rules set

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Re: Casting Defensively
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2003, 10:48:15 PM »
D&D is a high magic setting that has been integrated into the game play. With third edition, there are only four non-spellcasting classes (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk and Rogue) and nine spellcasting classes. Three of the non-spellcasting classes have abilities that could be considered supernatural or spell-like.

In the camaign I'm running now, I removed Arcane magic and replaced it with psionics. It has caused quite a bit of frustration among the players, who find it difficult to operate without certain spells to which they have become accustomed.

I'm also finding it hard to make realistic things interesting. A guy who is really good with a sword is just not as cool as who can turn invisible and throw fireballs.

And with the dislocating knee thing. When I dislocate it now, I do keep running. I can usually throw my knee back in as fast as I threw it out. Also, I cut myself and incure other bodily injuries all the time and it can take hours before I notice of feel anything. I just don't have a low-pain threshold. Physical pain just doesn't bother me very often. I don't feel needles when I get shots of notice a lot of other painful experiences.

Also, remember that the same rules you place on the PCs have to be inforced for the monsters and NPCs as well. And vice versa. According to WotC game designers, this is why they got rid of a lot of realism in D&D 3e and other d20 products. For example, it is fairly realistic for a character to walk behind a guard and kill him in one blow. However, it really sucks when this happens to a PC because there is nothing the player can do about it.

I think this is why there is defensive casting because it gives the player a measure of control.

If the GM takes away all control, which is realistic, the players may as well not be there.
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The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: Casting Defensively
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2003, 10:57:02 PM »
I'm sorry, but if they can't deal with that, they sound like poor players. It's ok to be frustrated, but if that's distracting from fun because they're not getting the exact same thing they're use to in every other game they've ever played.... well, play HeroQuest. Roleplaying obviously doesn't work for them.

I already addressed my NPCs and monsters being affected.

No offense, but imho, the WOTC designers made a number of stupid moves.

Also no offense, but cutting your finger with a knife or cutting open an arm on a passing protrusion doesn't compare to a heavy blow by a spiked mace, or being raked by a dragon's claws, or being stabbed with a sword.

I don't think removing casting defensively removes player control and gives it to the GM. It removes control for both. It also gives them both new options for how to react to spell casters. Yes, it makes things more challenging. But players who are aware of this ahead of time and are cool with it should be fine. Just accept the challenge and play.

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Re: Casting Defensively
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2003, 11:14:16 PM »
you forget I have depression. When I refer to cutting myself, I mean slashing open the bottom of my feet, leaving a trail of blood and not noticing the pain for a day or two.
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The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: Casting Defensively
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2003, 11:34:28 PM »
tmi

But you ARE getting help for that, right?

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Re: Casting Defensively
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2003, 11:48:51 PM »
Yes I'm getting help, but I still have years to go. My point is still that people react differently to pain. Emotional factors make a big difference on how people feel pain. In fact physical pain is a lot easier to deal with than emotional pain. Adrenaline and fear also make a huge differance.

Also, I don't like saying the the trouble I'm having with my low-magic campaign is the players fault. They are doing the best they can with what I've given them. I just have to accept that not all of my cool ideas turn out as well in practicum as they do in theory.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2003, 11:51:27 PM by 42 »
The Folly of youth is to think that intelligence is a subsitute for experience. The folly of age is to think that experience is a subsitute for intelligence.

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Re: Casting Defensively
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2003, 12:03:47 AM »
Is everyone still having fun?
If not, and it's because they aren't getting exactly what they want, then yeah, I blame the players. If not, and it's because you're seeking opportunities to hurt their characters, then maybe it is your fault. My point is just because a game is harder to become powerful in doesn't mean it isn't fun or that you've lost control.

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Re: Casting Defensively
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2003, 01:47:40 AM »
No we simply have accepted the flaws of the system and that it meant that we have to make more changes than originally expected. For example, I have to seriously tone down the difficulty of encounters because of the lack of magic. What would normally be an EL 6 is actually more like an EL 8 for this group.
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Re: Casting Defensively
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2003, 09:06:36 AM »
Well, that makes sense. So you have to adjust for it. I was already expecting that.