Classes?

[JP Dogberry]

In other words, it's inherintly restrictive, and several years behind the curve they added new features so it wasn't quite as bad?

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

that is not anything at all like I said. Inherently in my usage, at least, means it's a defining feature. Which it is not.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

I never said it was inheriently restrictive or used d20 as an example.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

but you did group class systems together, and d20 is a class based system. No, you didn't use the words, but the implication of the last several posts favoring non-class-based game systems has been that it is.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Well I only have two posts on this thread (3 if you count this one) so if there was implication it was done by other people and not me.

Anyway I said simulationists are more likely to like class systems , not that they were all the same, or inferior or even that people like narrativist games hate them or find them useless.

Class systems are by definition more structured than systems without classes...  the class may be flexible, but not as flexible as no class at all.

I dont want to be misunderstood about what I mean when I say I feel more challanged by a narrativistic system so I feel I need to qualify that a little.
Sometimes in systems with character classes I just make a generic something or other because its easy. Its hard to do that with a blank page, or at least harder than having a framework to work off of, so I feel more challenged by classless systems. Im sure it can be just as challenging to create a character for class oriented games, but that isn't my usual experience.

I like both systems and dont see it as a flaw in any way. Its just a different approach. As a roleplayer I tend to like a more narrativistic style, but appreciate a good class based system now and again (I like hackmaster for Gawd sakes).

[Nicadymus]

Classes can be limiting in some respects.  However, I feel that D20 has addressed this problem in many different ways:

(1) They always say..."If you don't like something, don't use it or change it."  This is great for me as I have done some modifying of the D20 rules for D&D for my current campaign, making it exceptionally high powered (almost an Elric from White Wolf sort of difference between the heros and the "norms") but it is fun for the players and I like it too.

(2) Wizards has been relatively good about offering numerous variants that can be used if you don't like the standard rules.  In Unearthed Arcana they even go away from the standard classes and offer the variant of "Generic Classes" that offer you a template of warrior, expert, or spell-caster, but allow you to customize a class in almost every single facet, from savings throws to feats, etc. And that is setting aside the "Gestalt Classes" which is even better than multiclassing as you go up in levels for 2 heroic classes at a time.

I feel that a class based system is great for balance, and, as long as the GM ensures balance among the Player's characters, any modifying of the classes is fine.

[PaperSword]

Personally, i enjoy classes and multi-classing. I've taken a liking only to D&D and SWRPG, however. D20 Modern stinks, and i have yet to play other things.