Author Topic: What I want for TWG  (Read 16010 times)

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: What I want for TWG
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2003, 09:05:52 AM »
But it's not strictly a gaming site. And while it first started as a way of getting "free stuff," I don't think it was ever meant to be restricted to only games. We have a movie section, TV discussions, book discussions.....

And I do think you're being cynical. And assuming too much about motive. Why would I write fiction just to say "i've been published" when I can already say I've been published here. I've written tons of reviews and articles.

Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: What I want for TWG
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2003, 10:46:27 AM »
Yeah, we could be like RPG.net, or gamegrene, or Pen and Paper, or we could distinguish ourselves from the pack of literally hundreds of review/game related sites out there.

Think about why dragon magazine constantly outsells dungeon (made by the same company and ostensibly about the same things) Dragon has a variety of articles widening its readership and making it more accessible to gamers while Dungeon is pretty much only about adventures. Dragon has fiction, comics, rviews, campaign information, interviews and articles about the industry and gamerdom, as well as some surprising writing.

I must respectful disagree about you opinion of net fiction. You are in fact dead wrong.
Net fiction is not reguarded as universally bad any more than paperback books are. Bad net fiction however just like bad paperback books or bad television can be a put off.
So we just need to strive to publish good fiction and leave the bad stuff out.


You keep saying that we are only a game related site, but miss that we have book reviews too. While all the books have been fantasy novels so far, a precident is there to review history works (potentially game related) and sociological works as well as books about mythology and anthropology.

Just a copper phenning or two.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2003, 10:51:02 AM by ElJeffe »
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Spriggan

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Re: What I want for TWG
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2003, 10:48:06 AM »
That's differnet then fiction.  If you're willing to set up a group to read every story as you did with TLE, and have several people that make the finial descision (all who have worked in the industry before), and make sure none of them publish articles then I'll stop voiceing opposition to this.  It's a matter of standards and credability.  Once one person that uses TWG and a souce for haveing had fiction published then we loose all crediablity with our readers and everyone else.  'Cause if we're willing to publish anyone becasue they're a friend or acuantince then what's to say we haven't been giveing some things good reviews beacause of someone from that games company got us to.  True TWG isn't that big of a site and most people don't care about us, but I do care about it and haveing my name assoicated with an honest publicated.  If you do this you're just opeing up a can of worms.  
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: What I want for TWG
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2003, 10:54:28 AM »
why do we lose credibility?  Your logic seems incomplete. X does work we publish, X uses TWG as a reference and we suffer?
Im afraid I don't get it.

What about bad reviews then, TWG has had its share, heck I've written a few.
Will that cripple the site?

Everyone has hits or misses. Generally bragging about where you were published generates a buzz rather than scares people away.  I bet we scare away more potential readers by focusing solely on games than we would if we expanded our article base.
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Spriggan

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Re: What I want for TWG
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2003, 11:11:44 AM »
What's next after fiction?  Gardening tips?  You're not getting any of my points.  #1 is the credibalty,  Yes we've had some bad articles.  But Fell's finaly started setting a decent statndard.  Why do you think he sends things back to people to have them work on their articles.  He's only started to do that.  If you want to build a base you need consintincy as SE has stated.  There has to be mesures/guide lines for the articles.  Right now with articles we are following how the industry does it.  So if we start doing fiction we need to follow that industry's standards.

and #2)  We cannot even keep up with our normal article subjects.  Again we can do non review peices but we need to keep our site consistent.  We can't change what we are or do with every whim.  One month a fiction site, on month a gamming site, the next a hair style site.  People will be confused.  We need to prove that we can be consistent with our gamming articels before we add anything else.
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: What I want for TWG
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2003, 03:11:10 PM »
What's next after fiction?  Gardening tips?  
You're not getting any of my points.  

And your actively trying to not get mine.
The credability of TWG has nothing to do with publishing fiction or not. It also has nothing to do with reviewing movies (which incidentally arn't game related) or music, or writing about food. It also has absolutely nothing to do with someone claiming credit for themselves on a resume. TWG's credability has to do with how professional the standards are for reviewing the submissions and the quality of the work that gets onto the web site.
#1 TWG has a base. It has regular articles and reviews, thanks to people like Fell, Saint, Gemm, Slant and Me. For the last few months readers can look forward to more than 2 reviews or articles a week. There is enough archived content to keep new readers busy and the writing is being edited quite effectively.

TWG would be better served by following its own standards rather than the standards of Baen books, or Tor, or any of the other publishing houses.
If a story isn't polished and Fell, or whoever is reading the story finds more than a few spelling errors and typo's then they should continue to do what they do. Send em back with notes and wait for a re-write.


#2) We can and have kept up with normal articles and subjects. At least I have. You seem to think that the moment we add a new concept to what TWG is that we wont do any of the things we already do. No one ever suggested that. What was suggested was expanding our focus to include other related things that gamers enjoy reading.  Where you get Hair Styling and gardening is outrageously exaggerated, since people are talking about  adding what you term to be game related subjects.

Plus saying there is never a time for articles about hairstyling and gardening is short sighted even for a gamer. A larper or GM might be interested in victorian Hairstyles and A Swasbuckling campaign could benefit from an article on hedgemazes.  

I agree that fiction should be reviewed by a panel of people rather than just Fell or just Saint but its inclusion won't automatically hurt TWG.  


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Re: What I want for TWG
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2003, 04:32:19 PM »
I think Dragon Magazine is a good example. they always include a fiction piece and at least a spread's worth of comics in each issue.

They have primarily articles on their own system, but at one time they even had a monthly feature on a system their parent company (TSR) didn't even publish.

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Re: What I want for TWG
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2003, 01:03:01 AM »
EUOL Posts  

Be Afraid!


It's amazing how such interesting topics can pop up without my even noticing them.  Let's talk about a few things.  First, I feel a need to explain to all of you why exactly my article writing declined starting in September of last year.

Originally, I was on track for two-to-three articles a week.  This was a large work-load, even when I wasn't in school.  I kept it up for a year or so, however, building our webcomic base--which appears to still be one of our sections that gets the most outside notice.  There was one big problem with webcomics, however--I read them when I had discretionary time.  Writing a good webcomics article required a huge time investment, as it required one to read through much (if not all) of the archives in order to have a good view of the comic as a whole.

When I entered grad school, I discovered I just didn't have time to read webcomics.  This goes double for drawing my own, which just demanded too much of my discretionary time for me to justify when compared to my writing career and my schooling.  This left Magic, which to be honest, I felt that our input on this area was relatively unwanted, since we didn't play to the community that would read Magic articles.  (Fell and I had several good discussions about this.)  Unfortunately, this left me with only the 'free stuff' section, which never really had a strong identity in the first place.  Therefore, my article writing languished.  

I tried to combat this by jumping to a new section--one that I knew I would be involved with no matter how busy my life became: books.  I consider myself a professional author, and may very well soon have some legitimacy to the claim.  I figured that this was an area that I actually had some credibility in, as opposed to webcomics, which I just kind of jumped into.  So, I suggested Evil Storytime--which I still think was a great idea.  I also suggested the 'build an RPG' series of articles because I thought that it would add some interesting and original content.  I didn't think I'd be any better at building a paper-based RPG than anyone else, but I thought it would be a series of original articles that would inspire repeat readership, and when it was done would offer a downloadable product (which is always good--people love free stuff.)

Unfortunately, Sprig already pointed out what happened here.  I really did feel that I had no support for what I was trying.  Evil Storytime died because Fell refused to read the book that we were supposed to be reviewing.  The RPG series received little attention, and I was politely informed that it was hardly original, that many sites offered free RPGs, and that I really didn't know enough about the genre to have anything relevant to say.  

Now, those things very well might be true.  I didn't take them with any bitterness--in fact, my inborn laziness said 'Great!  Now I don't have to write anything.'  This obviously was not the best response, but hey, at least I tried, right?

Yes, TWG is a hobby for me.  However, pretty much everything except my writing (including grad school) is a hobby for me.  I would like to see TWG progress.  I’ve kind of moved beyond the ‘free stuff’ aspect of the site, though I do use it on resumes.  I also see something in the future that will, perhaps, better tie me to TWG and increase its readership.  As has been discussed, I’ll probably be releasing a book with TOR sometime next year.  It has been recommended to me that I begin thinking about my own professional website as an author.  Most have them, you probably know.

I would likely link to TWG from my site.  In fact, I would probably tell them that I write book reviews and frequent the forum at the TWG.  Rather than having my own forum, I might ask Fell if I could have a section at the TWG.  I’m not sure how many hits authors sites get, I expect it has to do with their popularity, but I could see this siphoning some new readership to the TWG (if, in fact, Fell wants the association.)
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: What I want for TWG
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2003, 01:14:49 AM »
Btw, tell me when your book gets published so I can pick up a copy.

Which reminds me... there is more than an offside chance that I could get Orsen Scott Card to join the site and pop in with a couple of hundred words about SF fantasy or writing from time to time. He was in my and Saints ward back in Greensboro (Summit if your interested) and he once told me that if I ever needed a favor in the publishing dept I should look him up.  In fact I had a couple sessions with the missionaries in his dining room. Would people be interested in something like that? Not promising anything, but I could try...

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Re: What I want for TWG
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2003, 01:19:51 AM »
Now, an actual response to what you’ve been discussing.  It is very nice to see these topics being bantered about.  Some thoughts:

First, I’ve come to grips with the fact that Tage has to change the forum/TWG format.  I really like the post-count idea.  I would try and find a way to incorporate it into a new forum, if possible.  However, Tage is the coder.  He knows what the site needs, and maintenance needs to be the first consideration.  I may be alone in this, but I STILL think that individual home pages for the various sections is better than one uniform section.  The RPG section looks amazing.  42 did an excellent job with it.  That kind of professional artistic vision could really help the site if it were applied to the other sections as well.  If we had just a few more original graphics for the various more-used sections, then I think we’d really have something that looks keen.  We could have a standardized format for the ones without original layouts, but I highly recommend not throwing away that RPG section art.

As for more readership/articles, I would not be opposed to making another once-per-week commitment to writing articles (in the books section this time) if I felt that we had renewed goals for the TWG.  As I’ve stated, I have actual credibility in this area, both academic and professional.  I also wouldn’t be opposed to taking a bit more of the administrative burden, assuming Fell tells me what he wants me to do.  

Fiction:  Don’t sell this idea too short, Sprig.  Everything you say is right.  Webzines are regarded fairly skeptically in the professional writing market.  There are just too many of them, and most of what they publish has no serious competition.  There are a few, however, that are now regarded with as much credibility as print magazines.  

I wouldn’t be opposed to fiction, in theory.  If we could find one really, really good story to publish every few months or so, it could be a great draw for readers.  We don’t want to be publishing fanfics or other ‘fanboy’ sort of fiction.  We also don’t want to be getting tons of submissions to read.  We also don’t want to ruin our credibility (which, by the way, I agree with Sprig is a huge issue here) by becoming a fanzine.  What to do then?  

Fear not.  EUOL has the answer.  Why don’t we go back to a partnership with The Leading Edge?  We sprang Athena-like from its head anyway.  Every six months, when TWG publishes, we could try and get electronic rights to the best story in the issue.  We could offer the author ten bucks or so to publish their story electronically, which would give them more exposure and a little more cash.  That way, we could have a small, elite fiction section without having to deal with submissions or the other problems of being a webzine.  We could even give an explanation that we have a partnership with a print magazine, giving TLE some more exposure, and giving ourselves a little more legitimacy.  

As for article management, here’s the thing.  It comes down to Fellfroshe.  He needs to encourage people to submit.  If he had come to me last year when I wasn’t writing articles and said “Hey, could you do this for us” or “Hey, we really could use a few more articles” I probably would have written them for him.  It is difficult to keep motivation when the sole responsibility and accountability resides on one’s own shoulders.  He would need to get commitments, then follow up on them.  He would need to send emails saying ‘Article’s late.  When can we expect it?’  Deadlines are a wonderful thing, folks.  They push people onward.  That sort of harassment can make some people annoyed, but it will get articles written.  
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Fellfrosch

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Re: What I want for TWG
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2003, 01:25:37 AM »
Fell does indeed want the association, and thank you for offering. (In an interesting side note, combining our site with that of a professional fantasy author bolsters the idea that we should have fiction on the site.)

I think that Spriggan has some good points--colored by his biases, as always, but since he and I have similar biases when it comes to web-based fiction I find myself inclined to agree with him. Just because I don't like web fiction, however, doesn't mean that I'll never publish it. It's a subject that has to be looked at very carefully, and I see a lot of good coming out of it. The simple truth is that F/SF fiction audiences are quite often the same people as gaming audiences, and combining the two--if done correctly--would probably increase our readership. We just have to figure out how to do it correctly, and whether or not we'll be able to.
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Re: What I want for TWG
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2003, 02:18:33 AM »
EUOL, no one disagrees that the individual department pages *can* be better than a uniform one, the problem is simply that the RPG section is the only one that got that kind of attention. If no one is actually going to manage them, we're better off with a uniform page.

I have no strong feeling about fiction being published on the site. I enjoy good fiction in any form, and I think getting electronic rights to good TLE stories is a fantastic idea.

Also, I'm starting to get a feeling for what TWG should, perhaps, be. Review sites are plentiful and much better funded than we are. However, we could be a community site, drawing people by word of mouth (and/or email or IM). We would serve the special interests of our community, which ranges from tabletop games to PnP RPGs to video games to books. Or maybe even original fiction, and online forum games. It's something to think about, at least.
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Spriggan

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Re: What I want for TWG
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2003, 08:25:22 AM »
on the uni-form webpages.  EUOL we're useing PHP here, we can easly bring in graphics even if there aren't seperate pages.  If the graphics are roughtly the same size pixel wise then when the page loads the graphics requested will load.  It works basicaly the same way the text is pulled in.

And as I've said before If you get some good quality control for the Fiction I have no real problem with it, even though I have the problem with getting spread too thin.
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The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: What I want for TWG
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2003, 09:09:11 AM »
Theoretically, you could come up with a few different templates and still have a central set of variables that could be altered. But since I neither maintain site appearance nor code the php, I would have to say that ease is the greater virtue here. So skip the template step and just have one easily maintained page.

As for support: All I can say is that if the reason we feel we don't have support now is because the people who didn't get support before won't give their support now because they didn't have it then, well.... that'll be pretty darn sad. (If you follow that sentence, you get a cookie. My wife just made them, stop by and I'll give you a handful). Jeffe and I are both excited about developing TWG further, we talk about it a lot. We're also trying to suggest things that would be indiuvidual commitment, rather than needing a whole lot of people (ok, staff picks needs support, but I've already said if no responses come, it's bagged, and that won't stop me from other things).

Anyway, fiction:
I like the idea of co-opting some of TLE's. Who wants to be in charge of asking them (since 42 is an editor, he'd be a good one to liason).

Deadlines are good. And incidentally, hold me to this. I have 10 reviews to write, including Pendragon, Light Speed, and Buttonmen. I want at least half of them in this week.

Spriggan

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Re: What I want for TWG
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2003, 09:23:41 AM »
Well how PHP works is when you request a page it generates it on the server then sends it to the browser.  So we are useing a template, in simple terms, for the pages.  The difference will be no hard copy, like how HTML works, on the server.  
Screw it, I'm buying crayons and paper. I can imagineer my own adventures! Wheeee!

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