Author Topic: Fantasy vs Fantasy  (Read 3612 times)

Fellfrosch

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Re: Fantasy vs Fantasy
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2003, 12:33:17 PM »
Let me start by saying that every year, when we go to World Fantasy, the industry leaders shrug off all attempts at categorization with "It's a bookstore thing that isn't really applicable anywhere else." Then they turn around and set up categorical themes (last year's con was focused on horror, and this year it's dark fantasy), so they argue against themselves. So is SE right about the need for labels? That's an entirely different discussion, and possibly a deeper one, than simply figuring out what those labels are.

Kije has a very good point about setting and public perception, though. My mother-in-law, for example, refuses to have anything to do with Tolkien or "high fantasy," and yet she reads the Harry Potter books--despite the fact that the characters in LotR are much more "real" and consistent than those in Harry Potter. It's all about setting, and what you can accept as close to your own reality.

I don't object to the term Magic Realism the way SE does, but I do object to its usage: it's primarily an attempt by the mainstream to dodge the stigma of genre fiction. If anyone else had written the book Beloved it would be called a ghost story and stuck in the horror section; because Toni Morrison wrote it, however, it's suddenly Magic Realism and is acceptable to the masses as real literature.

A better definition of Magic Realism, in my mind, is the one I posed in my review of American Gods. Fantasy shows mundane people doing magical things (like Frodo visiting elves and fighting goblins and whatnot), whereas Magic Realism shows magical people doing mundane things (like the angel living with the chickens in "A very old man with enormous wings"). the trouble with this definition is that it doesn't really apply to many of the books already labeled as Magic Realism (such as One Hundred Years of Solitude), and thus breaks down.

But I'm getting off track, since I don't think I'd call Mary Poppins or Groundhog Day Magic Realism anyway. Field of Dreams, maybe, though that is presented as more of a religious story than a magical one (dealing, as it does, with the aftelife and the guiding influence of an omnipotent force). I'm tempted to say Modern Fantasy, since that's another common industry term, but it's completely unrelated to the Modern literary movement and is thus a little confusing (by that standard, Beloved would be called a Postmodern Fantasy). Nevertheless, if you describe a book or movie as a Modern Fantasy, most people know what you're talking about the same as if you say High Fantasy.

The term Contemporary Fantasy is not one I've ever heard before, so I'm going to assume that SE made it up in a fit of helpfulness. On the surface it seems like just a rephrasing of Modern Fantasy, and thus redundant, though it does manage to sidestep the confusing realtionship to Modernism. The trouble is, I don't really think that Contemporary Fantasy and Magic Realism are trying to say the same thing, so arguing which is better is kind of pointless. The two are only in conflict when the latter is used incorrectly (mostly by people like Toni Morrison who don't want to be thought of as Fantasy).

Dang, sorry for the huge post.
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The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: Fantasy vs Fantasy
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2003, 05:24:05 PM »
long post = food for thought. I'm going to have to work out what we're meaning with these. Some immediate comments
I'm not trying to say anyone isn't taking is seriously. I was just suggesting what I felt was neccesary ground work and assumptions for the discussion.
Contemporary fantasy in my usage doesn't imply contemporary for US, but contemporary for the author, and more losely, contemporary for a proposed future setting (like magical cyber-punk).
Magical Realism is already in use for non-fantasy purposes, and while some of that is very disagreeable (and used by marketers as a "safe" term, as Fell pointed out), I don't like it's use for that reason either. We should use a distinct term.

So, a term for what Fell means by magical realism? uh.. "mundane fantasy?" Just another fit of helpfulness, this one perhaps not as helpful

EUOL

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Re: Fantasy vs Fantasy
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2003, 09:41:51 PM »
I also do not object to the term 'Magic Realism,' though I see it as less broad than Fell does.  I'm still trying to find the right term to express the "Everything that's not High Fantasy" genre.  I don't want fluid catagories or small breakdowns here--I'm looking for the more rigid terms.  If High Fantasy is a story that takes place on an imaginary world, with no referances to Earth, then that's a fairly hard-fast genre definition.  I'd kind of like an equally hard-fast term to describe everything that does take place in a world that referances Earth.
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stacer

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Re: Fantasy vs Fantasy
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2003, 11:51:01 PM »
Just wanted to let you know that I intend to rejoin the discussion either tomorrow or the next day. I have some interesting articles from my fantasy class, discussing how particular academics have categorized fantasy, that you guys might find interesting (also includes authors such as Susan Cooper). But I've had a really long day--really big presentation today on Marxist literary criticism  :P--interesting, but extremely tiring. Then had an activity tonight and just got home. So I can't think straight just yet. But I do want to find those articles and come back to the discussion.

I remember some very interesting comments in the articles on Magical Realism in particular. If I remember right, the way my teacher used it is as a story that is completely realistic except for one small magical thing, but that's problematic, too, as there are lots of books like that that aren't categorized as magical realism. One of the books we read under that category was Skellig by David Almond. Anyone read it? I'd love to hear your impressions of it. I had issues with it, which I won't spend the energy on right now.
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Re: Fantasy vs Fantasy
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2003, 01:24:26 AM »
I don't think that you'll get what you want, EUOL. For starters, I don't think that your definition of High Fantasy is right. 'no reference to earth' seems impossible, but even ignoring the absolute nature of the phrase, it doesn't apply to a world like the one Terry Brooks' Shannara series takes place in, which I think falls solidly in the realm of high fantasy. None make direct references to modern earth, but Brooks makes many references that make his world appear to bea  post-apocalyptic version of this world (especially in context of his other writings, like the Knight and the Word series). This adds a thick haze to your rigid definition.

I also don't think you'll have a lot of success because of my experience defining terms like this. don't get me started on comics/graphic novels/sequential storytelling/et al. "Art" itself is a HIGHLY ambiguous term. Whenever you try to get precise with terms relating to it, you start to find lots of problems with what you're doing.

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Re: Fantasy vs Fantasy
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2003, 12:49:28 PM »
I think you underestimate EUOL's ability to define his own world as he sees fit. ;)

And I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw those references in Brooks, though I never really bought the idea. Not  that it is necessarily a bad one, but the execution left something to be desired.

It's funny, but fantasy to me is pretty much anything to do with swords. Which is why I tend to classify stuff like The Mask of Zorro as fantasy even though it doesn't have any magic in it. I can accept Groundhog Day as fantasy, but someone has to point it out to me first.
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Lieutenant Kije

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Re: Fantasy vs Fantasy
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2003, 12:53:27 PM »
You've got this thing with swords, don't you?

Fellfrosch

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Re: Fantasy vs Fantasy
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2003, 01:37:48 PM »
I think that we can safely classify High Fantasy as anything that takes places in a made-up, magical world. This will include things like Shannara and Saberhagen's Sword books (sounds like you should read those, MoD) which are based on vaguely post-apocalyptic concepts. Besides, isn't Middle Earth supposed to be some kind of mythical prehistory to our own Earth? This definition will also include more direct fantasies like Wheel of Time and Game of Thrones (and even some wacky stuff like McCaffrey's Pern books if we decide to let it in).

Alternate History is a pretty safe term for stories that take place in a fantasy version of Earth's past--stuff like Alvin Maker, Deadlands, and the recent Lionheart video game.  It's a term that's already in common use and it works well. You can even apply it to Arthurian stories if you decide not to just give them their own genre.

For fantasy stories that take place in the modern world, I'm tempted just to go with Modern Fantasy--again, because it's a word already used in the industry. The trouble is, I don't really think that Mary Poppins, Groundhog Day, and American Gods belong in the same category. I don't think a blanket term for "everything that's not High Fantasy" is feasible.
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Mistress of Darkness

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Re: Fantasy vs Fantasy
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2003, 02:44:59 PM »
The thing about Mary Poppins and Groundhog Day is that a lot of the fantastic elements could be interpreted differently. Did the children in Mary Poppins just have very active imaginations? Mary Poppins herself will never admit to the adventures afterward. And did Bill Murray just have a really vivid dream/vision that caused him to change?

It makes me wonder if those stories should even be classified as fantasy.
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Re: Fantasy vs Fantasy
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2003, 02:45:27 PM »
And Kije, what makes you say that? ;)
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Fellfrosch

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Re: Fantasy vs Fantasy
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2003, 04:15:39 PM »
If we're going to start discounting fantasy elements as hallucinations or daydreams, we may as well through the whole discussion out onto the street. Couldn't you make the same "overactive imagination" argument about Frodo and Sam? If we're going to look at fantasy seriously we have to accept it for what it is.
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Re: Fantasy vs Fantasy
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2003, 05:17:58 PM »
With Mary Poppins, you CAN almost make the argument that it's their imagination, making it the realm of the Fantastic (I described in another thread) rather than fantasy. The problem, at least with the Disney film, is that we get to see Mary do magic and talk to an inanimate object !!! when the kids aren't around or looking. In fact, we're explicitly told that they are essentially ignoring Mary at the time. So no, you can't really conclude that it's their imagination.

It doesn't work with Groundhog Day either. He knows things and has skills that he didn't possess before he changed. If he was dreaming, than the dream suddenly has a supernatural power to give you abilities you didn't before dreaming. It's still supernatural. So on even internal grounds, neither of these films is "fantastic" rather than fantasy. We have to accept it both for practical discussion and because of an internatl textual reading.

There are books that make that hesitation and ambiguity a focus of the book. Where you can argue whether it is fantasy or not because the book isn't clear on whether you are supposed to take it as magic or not, but nothing we've discussed in this thread qualifies.

We also need to get MoD off this swords = fantasy kick. Cool as swords are, that's just not what fantasy is. swords usually mean action, but they're certainly not fantasy by definition.

I still think we need to go with some bigger categories than we've got. High fantasy, Contemporary Fantasy, and Magical... something or other.
High fantasy would be the invention of new worlds where magic and the unreal are primary characteristics of those worlds. Subgenres would include sword-and-sorcery, the quest, etc
Contemporary Fantasy would be books like the Knight and the Word, Shadowrun, etc. WOrks in which the real world is used as a starting point, but then magical features and the unreal are added as major features. Under this we have historical works, like Arthur stories where magic appears, as well as "Modern Fantasy," stuff that happens in our own time, like "American Gods."
Magical... something or other (help me with a term besides magical realism here) also assumes the real world, but only adds minor magical influences, like when Jane Eyre "senses" her boyfriend's recovery, Groundhog day (it's important to the plot, but it's only one magical effect, and it only effects ONE person).

My only problem with this is that it seems to put My Little Pony into the same Category as Lord of the Rings...

Mistress of Darkness

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Re: Fantasy vs Fantasy
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2003, 06:42:09 PM »
No, no, I know that swords don't equal fantasy.

So, in essence we are defining High Fantasy as "in the past or like the past" and Contemporary Fantasy as "in the present"?
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Re: Fantasy vs Fantasy
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2003, 07:12:51 PM »
Well, *I'm* not. I don't think it's right. I'm defining High Fantasy as "new/invented world" while Contemporary Fantasy is "our world, altered significantly to include magical, unreal elements"

Mistress of Darkness

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Re: Fantasy vs Fantasy
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2003, 07:33:22 PM »
Ah. Well, given those classifications, all fantasy would fit somewhere.
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