Religion

[Entsuropi]

I don't understand many things. I don't understand how heat transmits. I don't understand how my muscles work. I don't really understand why me and Jeffe can disagree so much on all subjects except the military, where we are very much in agreement. I don't understand children, not at all. But one thing that always baffled me, since an early age, was religion.

Now, I don't wanna go offending anyone here, but I'm still depressed from talking to SE (he always has that effect) and we have not had a interesting topic like this for ages.

So tell me. The reason, the real reason, I am atheist is that i am, to take a WoD idea, a "product of the generation of cynicism". I don't trust things, unless i have proof or stuff. And i cannot understand how people can trust in, and devote significant parts of their mental energy to, an ideal like religion. Christianity, Islam, Judasiam, whatever. What combination of mental factors and external stimuli allows you guys to throw your faith at religion while I can do no such thing? What makes people become monks and devote themselves to God in a way like that? What, for example, allows Stacer to take comfort from the scriptures after working? Is it simple familiarity, the comfort of knowing that which she reads?

Again, no offense meant or anything. If this seems random and intrusive, well, thats the kind of person I am, more fool me. But you guys are pretty much the only devout people i know. Whats the secret?

[42]

Well, it's hard to say where it starts. But I kind of feel that it starts with hope for good things and some optimism that there is more to life then just I see as an individual.

LIke you said, there is a lot we don't know. For me that means I can be mistrustful and afraid of what I don't know. Or I can place some trust, and later faith, in things that are good, like God.

[EUOL]

A sincere question is never offensive, Entropy.  

Familiarity is undoubtedly part of it.  Upbringing also has an effect--though, I think there is more.  Many religions, such as my own, are very demanding.  If it were simply a product of society and rearing, I think that inherently lazy people such as myself would find excuses not to continue practicing religion if there weren't something very strong holding them to their beliefs.

For me, this thing is hope.  Hope that there is something more than just the everyday mundanity I see around me--or, rather, that there is some *purpose* behind that everyday mundanity.  A plan of some sort; a reason for my existence beyond the simple conversion of oxygen into carbon dioxide.

This hope tells me that there is a 'Good' out there--that actions can be moral for their own sake.  It tells me that there is some ultimate source of knowledge, and all is not simply frivolity.  It tells me that there is a purpose in obtaining this good, and in learning Truth.

Where does this hope come from?  Part of it is rational.  I think and ponder, and I come to the conclusion that it is better to believe in this Truth because of the person that belief makes me.  I can do good with no reward because I feel satisfaction in fulfilling that which I believe I was created to do.  I can live without fear of death, because I know--heaven or hell--that the ultimate terror of simple non-existence is not a possibility.  I can control my actions and make myself better because I believe there is an intended direction for my personal growth.

Mostly, however, this hope comes from a feeling within.  Rationalists might call it self delusion.  However, I believe that I have tested my faith on many occasions, and each small miracle has validated my belief.  Too many coincidences.  Too many thoughts at the right time.  Too strong a feeling in my heart when I pray--a feeling that there *is* something there watching me, guiding me, and depending on me.

Philosophic?  I suppose I get that way sometimes.  

[stacer]

Well said, EUOL. That's very much the kind of thing that I would have said, but you said it better.

For me, it's something that I've tested over and over again through the years. I suppose a religious belief of one kind of another is a common thing in my family, though we don't all believe the same thing. So in my teens I did a lot of thinking about religious beliefs, pondering and praying and studying it out, both intellectually and through exercising my faith. I find that as I allow myself to believe a little, that belief is added upon and confirmed through experiences and feelings. And it's a great comfort to know that I'm not alone, that there is a plan for my life and for this world.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

I think we actually agree with more than you think Charlie.

Religion is complicated.
Like politics


People choose religion for lots of reasons, a feeling of belonging to something, or community are often strong draws.
For me its a knowledge that there has to be a better world a universe of love and not cold logic, and of a well of creativity that cant be emptied.

Its not something I can sell, or give away, its something that I know. Cant be any more specific than that really.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

without detracting from what's been said, I want to approach the "proof" requirement.

in short, what constitutes proof? Rational demonstration? the only reason that logic bears more weight than inner guidance for you is that you've been told it does. True or not (and I don't think it is) we're trained to think that the human race gets smarter and better at all things, so what is accepted as general truth now MUST be right, even if for much more of human history soemthing else was held to be true.

But I believe that there are other ways of pursuing truth than logic. Logic gets you some pretty funny places if left on it's own. Look at the French "Enlightenment" and the post revolution period. All based on logic, but you end up with things like 20 hour days and 10 day weeks and weird stuff like that. While the number seemed to "make more sense" they didn't fit in with reality.

so, in short, I reject the premise of proof on the world's grounds of logical demonstration. I still demand proof, but there are other sources of knowledge than the vibration of atoms and so forth.

I believe that God himself speaks truth to us. Because I've had truth spoken to me and there's nothing else to ascribe it to. That truth says that God is real (another reason to believe in God). ANd no, this is something very different from "voices" (those are telling me to kill my boss, not believe in God). It's a series of impressions and thoughts, flashes of insight. It's distinct from emotion, and distinct from impulse as well. It's not what I WANT to hear (at least, usualy), but it feels right and makes sense.

I guess you could say it's like Socrates' Eudaimon. But in short, God communicates his truth. Strictly speaking, as a Christian, it's the Holy Ghost, but same thing.

Oh, and what's this about me depressing you? All I did was whine about my mother-in-law.

[Fellfrosch]

There is a scripture in the New Testament that declares "faith without works is dead," which essentially means "you can't believe anything passively." If a person wants to develop faith in a religion, he or she has to actively do the things and follow the principles that religion teaches; you can't just have faith in something, you have to develop faith through personal experience.

This makes faith a really tricky thing for a lot of people, since you can't really have it until after you've committed yourself--the gap where you don't yet have faith but want to develop it anyway is what people sometimes call the leap of faith. To boil it down into simpler terms (the terms that I used to develop my own faith), you have to alter your actions before you alter your mind.

[Mistress of Darkness]

Well said everyone.

I wish there was something that I could add, but all I have is this. Truth is power of itself, and truth has more power to change behavior and improve a life than any other council or admonishment. I'm not perfect, but without my testimony of God I would not be even half the person I am today.

[EUOL]

Hum.  Well, there you go.  I'm not sure if we gave you the 'secret' to religion or not.  I hope it was somehow helpful to helping you understand us crazy theists.  

To be honest, Charlie, I'm not sure there is a secret to faith.  It seems like the only things in this world that have easy, quick answers are the ones offered by television and multi-level-marketers.  What really makes a person believe?   How do you come to have that belief?

When I was a missionary in Korea, we'd tell people something that always made sense to me.  If there really is a God, and he really does love us, then He'll want people to know that He's there.  Therefore, we'd suggest that people pray and ask for proof.

I sincerely believe that God does not turn away honest, heartfelt petitions.  If someone asks to know if He's there or not, he'll answer--probably not with angels or transcendent choruses, we don't believe he generally works that way.  Answers for me come as a feeling in my heart.  A kind of warmth and understanding--a quiet assurance that, when I feel it, even my generally cynical mind can't reject it.

Anyway, praying in itself requires a small amount of faith, so maybe we're going in circles.  But, it has to start somewhere.  It just makes sense to me that God, if there is a God, would be fairly hypocritical if He expected people to believe, but wasn't willing to offer people a measure of assurance that they were doing the right thing.  If He's there, then He has to answer sincere questions regarding his existence.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Im reminded of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade whenever I think of religion.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

It's often seemed to me that most Latter-day Saints are excessive in their demands of pre-existant faith before praying. It seems like a viscious cycle: You have to have faith to pray but you have to pray to have faith. How do you break in. (I have a theory that this demand comes from not knowing how to respond when someone claims that they prayed and didn't get an answer).

And I don't think that Alma agrees. In his seed parable/sermon he talks about only needing the desire to believe. So even if you don't have faith, but you'd like to, that's enough to get answer to your prayers.

In addition (and we're probably stepping into the gospel according to SaintEhlers here, so don't anyone say I claimed this was LDS church doctrine) I kinda take it one step further. I think that even if your WILLING to have faith if given cause to do so (and naturally this encompasses being open hearted enough to recognize cause, not just finding excuses not to have faith) then that cause for faith will be given. Not as a miracle, but in the forms that EUOL and I were talking about earlier.
In other words, if you have faith, then your prayers will be answered.
In addition, if you don't have faith, but you WANT to have faith, then your prayers will be answered.
and finally, if you're not necessarily SEEKING faith but just trying to find out if there's a reason to have faith, then your prayers will be answered.
THat's the gospel according to me, anyway. I think God has a vested interest in letting people know he's there, so long as the'll end up trying to learn more.

[Mistress of Darkness]

In response to Saint's comment I would like to point out that the Book of Mormon says "experiment upon the word" which to me means, sometimes you have to try something (like prayer, reading scriptures, etc.) before you know it's worth doing.