Author Topic: King Arthur  (Read 2524 times)

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Re: King Arthur
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2004, 03:13:32 PM »
The one Hallmark did was surprisingly well done. For a hallmark movie anyway. I enjoyed it. It was thematically loyal but definitely made it's own work. The effects adn costumes were often a bit... tacky... but still.

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Re: King Arthur
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2004, 03:29:45 PM »
I wasn't too thrilled with who they cast as Merlin. He's still too associated with Jurassic Park for me, I guess.

I did enjoy watching it, but it isn't something I'd buy in order to watch it again.

There was another TV movie from the 80s my mom had recorded, with Murphy Brown's actress as Arthur's sister. I liked that one, but the one with Rudy's actress from The Cosby Show was a little strange.
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Re: King Arthur
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2004, 03:48:53 PM »
really? I thought he did an impressive job. I liked that image of Merlin a lot. I think I would have liked Hugo Weaving even more, though. I think he'd make a great Merlin in that style.

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Re: King Arthur
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2004, 05:23:50 PM »
Here's a link to the trailer.  It's the new one with Keira Knightley as Guinevere.  She's all nifty and has a sword.

http://www.apple.com/trailers/touchstone/king_arthur.html
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Re: King Arthur
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2004, 10:04:32 PM »
That moive follows what most historians now beleave to be the most accurate account of author.  So, luck you, me as the historian am going to give you a quick overview of Aurthor.  That he was influenced by the romans, possibly even friends with the roman empror at the time.  Though out history there has been no refrence to a "Author" that was king, all thought there was a "great king" as he was called in laten that has been proven to be involved with many of the battles associated to Author, includeing invadeing france.

Next is the legend of the round table, most historians beleve this is more of a metaphore then anything else.  It's ment to symobolise the male bonding that arutor and his officers would go through before each battle.  This usaly would happen sitting around a hearth or fire, thus the round table.

The legend of excalabur is another intresting one.  And well break it down into two parts.  The first is pulling the sword out of the stone.  This possible came from the method of casting bronze and sometimes iron swords called "cold casting".  It works much the same as scultpturs use today wich is just pooring the metal into a mold then, once cool, yank it out of the mold.  This required a decent amount of strength.

The second part is the lady of the lake.  It was custom at the time for Britonics to throw the swords of fallen comrads into lakes to help that persons (the dead one) soul to pass into heaven.  So its beleaved that the lady of the lake legoned came from there.

There's not much known about merlin or where that came from.  But I can easly go off on Authors birth (most beleve he was of noble birth comming from a seaport town that was know to have strong connections to rome) and the location of camalot.
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Re: King Arthur
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2004, 10:55:45 PM »
I believe most historians think Merlin came from the stories of a mad hermit named Myrddin who had the gift of prophecy or at least thought he did.  And then to take it further Myrddin was supposedly the name of some place and the character was invented to explain the name, I suppose sort of like Romus and Remus story for Rome.

King Arthur ain't got nothin on Merlin, he's one of the coolest characters of all time.
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Re: King Arthur
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2004, 11:05:34 PM »
I'm not sure exactly how to go ahead with this:

Arthur isn't a historical figure. There may have been "an" Arthur who eventually metamorphosed via stories into a King, but at best, there MAY have been an Arthur who was a war duke of the britons against the Saxons. There is no conclusive proof of this, however, and most scholars actually remain unconvinced about any archeological evidence about Arthur.

This Arthur would have been sub-roman, which is to say, AFTER the fall of the Roman empire. At the very least, after Rome had no interest at all in the British isles, which would lead most Britons to think that the Romans weren't the best guys to be friends with. Though it is true that many probably imitated and continued Roman culture and ways, they felt no alliance or allegiance to the Roman Empire, which no longer existed in any case.

Note also that the origins of the stories are primarily Welsh, with some influences much more northern, and only a few from the mainland, well after Rome was something people's grandparents were generations too young to remember. Wales and Pictland/Scotland were at best on the fringes of Roman control, often outside of it completely.

The Round table, as such, probably never existed as described, true. But this is mainly because it was supposed to have sat 144, and such a table would never have been moved. It was actually not uncommon for round tables to be used for people to sit at in counsel (there was, however, still a best seat: that near the King, who was a figurative head).  If some King in the 5th or 6th century did have a round table, it was probably empty in the middle so servers could approach from the opposite side.

Excaliber is not so simple either. There are about a half dozen theories as to what is meant or what it means. None are truly prevalent or totally convincing. Most actually have more to do with pagan and/or Christian rituals than anything else.

Camelot has several contenders -- if such a place even existed, stretching across most of southern Britain. Not all (in fact most aren't) are seaports or even large villages today.

It should be noted that there is NO  mention whatsoever of a King Arthur until several centuries after he supposedly lived. Which means NO primary sources and no way to figure out where the authors of those histories even got their ideas about Arthur. There were 12 great battles associated with either Arthur or one of his predecessors (Uther or Ambrosius Aurealis) were involved in. but even these battles are not mentioned till hundreds of years after they occurred. It should be noted that only 2 of the locations of these battles can be established with any degree of certainty (and those are still contended), and the most important, badon, is totally unknown. There is some evidence that the war these involved occurred, but not enough to be conclusive and there is nothing establishing Arthur as a real figure, let alone the leader of a Britonic empire or collection of kingdoms.

While most of what Spriggan said are valid interpretations, I would warn against assuming that any of them are conclusively true, or even accepted by any majority of scholars.

As for Merlin: change most to "some" and you have something. Myrddin may also have been some sort of Celtic God. He also may have had nothing to do with it, as the strongest argument for the connection rests with a linguistic twist that is possible but highly speculative and unproven.

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Re: King Arthur
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2004, 11:25:17 PM »
Bibliography:

If you want more authoritative stuff, THE most important work is The New Arthurian Encyclopedia edited by Norris J. Lacy. If you only look at one reference, this is it. It will give a an accounting of the major and important ways that different characters have been interpreted and used.

The Romance of Arthur edited by James J. Wilhelm and Laila Z. Gross is another good summation and explanation.

For history, I recommend The World of King Arthur by Christopher Snyder, which gives an excellent overview of sub-Roman Britain, connects some of the major themes to their roots, and gives some origins. It also looks at portrayals of Arthur today. To go further, try John Davies' A History of Wales.

The best way to get an over all feel is to ready Thomas Malloy's Le Morte d'Arthur (many good English translations and abridgements are available). It's old, possibly dry, but you don't get a better summation. he did EVERY story he knew of into one big cycle.

For more modern historical looks at arthur, try Mary Stewart's Merlin series or even Marian Zimmerman Bradleys Mists of Avalon (I liked the former, couldnt' stand the latter).

Tennyson's Idylls of the King is a wonderful poetic work.

If you dont' mind "R" movies and don't have time to read Mallory's rather bulky work, try watching Excaliber

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Re: King Arthur
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2004, 03:14:03 AM »
Quote
While most of what Spriggan said are valid interpretations, I would warn against assuming that any of them are conclusively true, or even accepted by any majority of scholars.


True but they are the interpretations of the leading experts in the arciological evendece of who king author might have been.  I just paraphrased what I've read.
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fuzzyoctopus

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Re: King Arthur
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2004, 03:18:27 AM »
I'm very disturbed, Spriggan, that King Arthur became King Aurthur and now King author.

His name is in the title.  That's not bad spelling that's LAZINESS.
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Re: King Arthur
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2004, 06:00:14 AM »
That's a misspelling?  I thought he was just talking about me.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2004, 06:01:03 AM by EUOL »
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Re: King Arthur
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2004, 07:39:01 AM »
well, define for me what "leading archeologists" were taken. Reading the discussion on Arthur.net (an international mailing list on scholarly issues surrounding Arthur, contributed to by historian, archeologists, folklorists, linguists, and other literati who have made Arthur their whole career) nothing nearly so settled has come about. And much of it runs against what little IS settled (such as Arthur being a friend to the Roman emperor when, if he lived at all, he lived after Rome had fallen).  The biggest thing is that your post implies that he DID live, and that is not something that will ever be commonly accepted among the leading scholars

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Re: King Arthur
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2004, 08:58:56 AM »
I'm going by Geoffrey Ashe's interpertations of Arthur.  I beleave that most major legend's are allways based off of historical events and/or people.  And I beleave that Arthur as we know him is more a combination of several people from that time when there were many fights against the Saxons going on.  And that it's probable that the arthur persona started out as a way to boost moral among Brittish troops, and that the stories were based off a real commander then went from there.  of course, one of the problems with that part of hisotry in Europe is that civilization wasn't very good record keepers so most of anything we know of that time there can be desputed by one person or another.

Here's a fun quote you can now argue about, from aformentioned Ashe.  How right he is we'll never know, but a lot of his arguments seem more along the right path to me, then alot of the others out there.

Quote
My new idea was to scrutinize Arthur's foreign warfare in Geoffrey of Monmouth and take it seriously. Historians had assumed that any original Arthur would never have gone outside Britain: in that respect Geoffrey's narrative was pure fancy and it was useless looking for clues overseas. I did look overseas, and found trustworthy records of a "king of the Britons" who took an army to Gaul toward the year 470. We even have a letter to him. He is referred to as Riothamus, which means "supreme king" or "supremely royal" and may be a sort of honorific applied to a man who had another name. His career seems to underlie at least a major portion of Geoffrey's account, and passages in a Breton text and several chronicles suggest that he was in fact the original Arthur.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2004, 09:06:27 AM by Spriggan »
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The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: King Arthur
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2004, 09:12:06 AM »
granted, if you change "leading experts" (plural) to "leading expert" (singular) than you may have a case. The problem is that you keep implying that there's some sort of consensus in this direction. While Mr. Ashe is very highly regarded, that doesn't mean that everyone, or even most scholars, think he has it right on.

The other problem with your conflation-of-famous-leaders theory is that you can't say "arthur did this" at that point. You can only say one of the inspirations for Arthur did this.

As you say, the record is scanty. There is no evidence directly refuting the existance of some Arthur. But there is also only a little evidence saying that there WAS an Arthur. And that evidence doesn't point to a king or a pan-Briton leader, and most of it is considerably after the fact with no primary evidence, which makes it wholly unreliable.

So, what I'm saying is NOT that your ideas are wrong, but that there isn't anything resembling a public consensus agreeing with it. In most cases, there IS no public consensus, and the world of Medieval studies and Arthuriana would be much better off if people would stop telling their audiences and readers that there IS such a consensus (I'm not speaking about you, I'm speaking of every author of a remotely Arthurian book who presents information about Arthur as if it were proven fact).

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Re: King Arthur
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2004, 09:19:32 AM »
Well I was wrong about implying there was a consensus about the topic.   I was in a hurry when typeing my first post and that came out.   But Ashe isn't the only one to beleave that So implying that he's the only one isn't fair to my arguments. As for me refrencing "Arthur" did this and such, I was implying that the persona or insperations did such from what evendnce I've seen, so in my mind I was correct in speach.
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