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Messages - Justice1337

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Reading Excuses / Re: May 24th-Drew P- Untitled Prologue
« on: May 24, 2010, 09:07:55 PM »
I agree with what Cynic said about these two lines.  You should be very, very clear about who your viewpoint character is at any given time and what the level of immersion is.  If immersion is deep like it seems to be through the rest of the chapter, you obviously shouldn't reveal things that someone would never observe in themselves.  "Whether he heard the comment was unclear" can be "he tried to give no sign that he had understood the comment", or something like that.

Another thing about the prose is that the description seems to bounce from detail to detail, without spending enough time on one to fully immerse the reader.  And once the setting is clear, you don't need to worry about it until it changes for some reason.  I read several bits about the overwhelming sound, and it started to interrupt flow for me.  I mean, the first line, then maybe a few more sentences in the next paragraph is enough, I think.

As for substance, the “big reveal” technique could be good to establish your promise as a writer.  The reader thinks, he got me once, let’s see if he can do it again.  So, I can see why you did the execution this way.  One problem for me though is that it was done TOO well, so to speak. 

Here’s what I mean:
“…and so we honor him today. Against all odds he has prevailed!” - Herald
“They love you Druka , now don’t they.” – Orsak

It’s also odd that he knows the name of the one leading him to his execution.  These seem too much like things that would ONLY be said is a certain kind of reception for the King sort of ceremony.  That’s probably the point, but it could lead a reader to feel more tricked than surprised.  You also have to leave out certain details about the pitch of the crowd’s voices and the looks on their faces for this deception to work.  If you were to instead leave the purpose of the gathering completely unclear, or at least if the misdirection were a bit more subtle, you’d still have your “wow” effect, I think.  I mean someone going so quietly to their own execution is going to lead to surprise in itsef.

Otherwise, I keep feeling like the scene could be drawn a lot smaller.  You don’t need as much movement up the platform, through the crowd, etc. and you don’t need the exposition about the cities, the empire whatever that is.  Until you have a proper point of observation anchored in a sympathetic character, all that stuff is going to be forgotten because there’s no reason for the reader to really care.  You can start to see the price you’re paying for your surprise effect, because all you can really talk about is where the character is, how people around him are reacting and then his last words and execution.  You can’t tell the reader why they should care about this character yet because doing so would reveal the fact that he’s done something that he’s to be executed for.

There’s also some minor problems about including both the word “God” and “Leuka” in the same passage, and other small consistency issues, but nothing too major for a first draft.
 

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Reading Excuses / May 24 - Justice1337 - TheodoraExcerpt
« on: May 24, 2010, 07:53:13 PM »

I'm looking forward to zealous input.  Fire away.

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Reading Excuses / Re: May 17 2010 - Ryos - Benders - Chapters 1 and 2
« on: May 22, 2010, 02:30:32 AM »
   The above is really great advice about when to workshop a novel.  I rewrote my first so many times that likely not a single word of the original survived.  I sort of wish I still had it, if for nothing other than nostalgia.

   That said, I think I can add a little qualification.  When starting off as a new author, you’ll probably find that the innate, talent-oriented aspects of it are strong, or at least, stronger than the technical aspects.  And the characters and such will probably be so strong by the end that you’ll feel they deserve a solid novel.  Save them.  Start a storage bin where you put all your imperfectly executed but otherwise brilliant ideas.  This is one aspect of writing that doesn’t get easier with time.  Even some best-selling authors will say that their ideas were the best at the outset.

   In the meantime, don’t feel bad about writing story after story with your favorite characters in them.  You don’t even need to make them cogent with one another, though you may be tempted.  Inspiration may lead you to try a plot twist on an old story, for example, and you shouldn’t feel that the characters are real somehow and have already passed that point in their lives.  Until they first hit print, they’re yours to hone your storytelling skills with.

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Reading Excuses / Re: Email List + Submission Dates
« on: May 20, 2010, 03:31:36 AM »
I'd like to submit this coming monday, if possible.

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Reading Excuses / Re: May 17 2010 - Ryos - Benders - Chapters 1 and 2
« on: May 20, 2010, 01:27:49 AM »
Quote from: Drew P on May 18, 2010, 06:41:01 PM
I would have liked to know more about Nmae, however. (And I'm not sure how i feel about her name. Part of me thinks you just typo-ed "Name" and ran with it.) Her chapter seemed to be more about plot and setting, so I'm not sure if she's a main character or not. You hinted that she's searching for someone, well more than hinted I guess, and I am assuming it is Dalrymple. Maybe if you included something about her motivation for her search. It doesn't even have to be detailed, just a hint. Like is she out to kill him? Capture him? Recruit him? Marry him?

This.

I have little idea after this chapter 1 what this character's motives are and why I should empathize with her.

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Reading Excuses / Re: May 17 - Asmodemon - The Citadel of Thorns, Chapter Four
« on: May 20, 2010, 01:14:39 AM »
This is the first chapter of The Citadel of Thorns that I've read, so forgive me if being out of the loop has caused any mistakes in my critique.

It sounds like a truly profound event has shaken the lives of many characters.  That's good.  I'll assume that the plot, or at least the next few chapters of it, consists of the characters trying to put things back together, so to speak.  (Humpty Dumpty)


From the first two viewpoint scenes, the characters’ contemplation of loss really strikes an emotional note.  That’s good because the first thing you want in a sequel (reaction to an event in drama) is an emotional response from those affected.  But it seemed to me that emotion was all these sections really did.

To have a sequel in drama, there needs to be clear, logical thought in the characters’ minds after the emotion subsides.  The thought doesn't need to be logical, often people don't think that way, but at least the explanation of the fact that the character is illogial and why needs to be logical.  The logical steps of that thought leads the characters to the next step in the sequence of plot.  So 1 – emotion, 2- thought and 3 – decision.

The characters have plenty of thoughts but none of them seem to lead anywhere.  In the first section, the character seems sort of surprised by “closing time”.  She just takes up a room because she hasn’t decided on anything else.  This may happen in real life after a loss, but it’s bad for drama.  The character needs to get to the next step sometime, maybe even after staying a few days at the inn as written, but the reader doesn’t need to be carried along until the character is ready to decide something.  If she takes so long to decide that she skips a large section of the chronological plot, then including this character in so large of a capacity that she needs a viewpoint scene every chapter is a dramatic mistake.  I’m rambling.  Basically, there are lots of ways to do this and you get the general idea.

As for the second section, there’s more forward plot movement here as far as Black Rose going to Orchid’s army, but it’s unexplained.  Maybe it’s obvious to anyone who’s read chapters 1-3 why Black Rose would want to join Orchid’s army, but the section reads like this is the first time they’ve met, then you find out that it’s not, and all the while you’re left wondering whether Black Rose likes Orchid and what exactly her judgment is of her “tactical prowess” – whether the appearance is enough or not.  These would be things that a person would consider in deciding whether to join the army of a given general, I think.  Does she think that Orchid will help her find her “abilities” or get back her throne?  Does she just trust Orchid?  Maybe she just wants to join up to kill something, I don’t know.  But whatever it is, this decision needs to be both fully explained to the reader and done so consistently with who Black Rose is as a character.  The thing is with profound emotional responses is that they usually involve just as much logical thought afterward to resolve what must be done. Step 1, emotion and Step 2, thought should be fairly equal.  But what you have in these 1000 words is 800 of emotion (which was good) and 200 of thought (which was good, but insufficient).  I don’t know, maybe after reflection you’ll realize that Black Rose doesn’t have very strong motivations to join Orchid.  If so, you’ve found a defect in the plot.  Drama needs characters with strong, palpable motivations.  But like most of us, you probably have it all straight in your head, and it’s just putting it to paper that’s tough.  I know it is for me.

Reading on in the chapter, I noticed similar problems with the rest of the sections.  Good description, but the elements of plot seem thin.

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Reading Excuses / Re: May 17 - LongTimeUnderdog - Six Stones Chapter 1
« on: May 18, 2010, 04:23:01 AM »
I'm new to the group, so bear with me :)  I'm eager to start contributing, and I'm especially excited to read this sort of dark fantasy.  That said, I only read the first viewpoint section.  This is what I think.

The first paragraph's description is strange because it says what hell ISN’T, not what it is.  I'm eager to hear from the horse's mouth, so to speak, what hell is, not find out about how hell in this story may be contrary to some common expectation.

The second paragraph had its problems too.  It starts out with a little of what the viewpoint character looks like, which is ok, but it ends with a thought about how no one wants to put up more money for streets.  At the end, all I know is that the character has wings, and I was much more interested to know what she looks like rather than the road's state of repair.

The rest of the first viewpoint section seems to continue in these problems.  By the end of it, I’ve got some scattered ideas about who this character is, what she does, but the rest is unclear.  She seems to be looking forward to getting money, but later she only seems to want it to buy bread.  This is confusing because wealth and survival are very different motives.  A rumbling in her stomach that leads her to the next mark would be more clear, I think.

There are also scattered references to the world in which the character lives, but it all comes piecemeal.  It may not make sense that the character could actually do what she did without seeing all these different sights on the road, but the reader can’t be exposed to it all at once.  Exposition comes later, on its own.


I think three things needed in a first chapter are immersion, empathy and statement of motive, in that order.

As for immersion in the setting, I’d recommend focusing on one, specific, solitary detail and expanding it as much as possible.  Find the one thing most unique about the setting and make the reader feel it.

Empathy comes next.  The empathy doesn’t need to be with the viewpoint character, but it it’s not, it must be strongly against her.  All that’s needed is some sort of empathy.  Do this by showing some sort of emotion, loneliness, fatigue, sadism, etc.  Focus on one and drive it home. 

Finally, the viewpoint character’s motive needs to be stated.  And the advice for focusing on one thing holds well here too.  Find the one thing that the character would want above all others, and focus on it.  Food, shelter, wealth, etc.  The reader will make his own judgments about how noble the character’s pursuit is, and after that, all the character’s other motivations can come into play.


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Brandon Sanderson / Re: I dislike this
« on: May 14, 2010, 04:57:14 AM »
Quote from: Miyabi on May 13, 2010, 06:31:25 AM

So these are the Japanese covers for WoA. . . .

They changed the name to Mistspirit and I really dislike the art.

Yeah, if you don't like Japanese... anything, this isn't going to sit well.  Sometimes I think they like staring at cartoon girly boys more than they like looking at their actual women.

As for the title, "born" is probably one of the top 10 most difficult words for Japanese people to say and to read in Katakana.  Why they have to use the transliterated English "Mistspirtsuto" blah instead of something equivalent in Japanese that gives the same effect is another question.  They probably just think English sounding things are cool. 

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Writing Group / Re: Length of Fantasy Novels
« on: May 12, 2010, 05:30:56 AM »
Quote from: Jexral on May 02, 2010, 10:10:19 PM
It's about 75000 words.

Also, thanks... That's what I kept telling myself.  <shrug>  I feel a little silly for worrying about it, really.

First post, so I thought I'd give my input on something I have at least some idea about :L

75,000 words could be fine, depending on the structure.  Word length is the most brute measure of stucture integrity there is, sort of like looking at a company's assets to determine how profitable it is.  But, there are some things to look at that will give you some idea about what your ideal word length is likely to be:

1) The central idea of your story.  Orson Scott Card teaches in his symposia that there are really only 4 types: Character, Idea, Event and Mileu.  If you've heard his shpeil, you'll know what I'm talking about and can adjust, otherwise I'll just asusme the story is an Event story, since most Fantasy is.  An event puts the world out of balance somehow and the characters struggle to restore it.  These tend to be shorter than Character stories, but longer than Mileu stories.

2) The type of conflict.  There's a spectrum of physical/psychological conflict, with each story striking its own balance without ever going to one extreme.  The more physical your conflict is the shorter your story will be.  Fantasy usually has very physical conflict themes.

3) Your choice of scene versus summary.  This is where 90% of the problems with word length come from.  Every scene has some measure of summary, and the best structured stories have as much summary as the reader expects and/or wants.  The quickest reading stories use summary very well.  Publishers want the story to be quick reading as much as they want it to be cheapt to print, so they too want more summary.  BUT... Tolkien wrote with one of the widest scene/summary ratios of any author with his kind of popularity.  Fantasy readers almost expect you to drone on about how the mountains in your world look, for example.  So, you as an author need to decide for yourself how you'll structure your writiting.  There's really no incorrect decision here as long as you're consistent; you just need to and alter your expectations of word length accordingly.

But assuming that all three of the above conform more or less to the typical idea of what mainstream, high Fantasy should be, 70,000 to 90,000 sounds about right.  Most books that go over 90,000 is because the writer failed to clip enough scenes or wanted to include more than necessary for some personal purpose of his/hers.  You should also keep in mind that at the novice level the ratio of stories that are too short to those that are too long is about 10:1, but at the professional level that ratio is almost exactly inverse.

Just my $.0.02     

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