Timewaster's Guide Archive

To go back to why there are no churches in Randland, I think Jordan said something about this a while ago.  I can't find the original quote, but religion isn't like our world because the Blight, Trollocs, Myddraal, and thousands of other creatures created in the War of Power serve as daily reminders that the Dark One and the Creator are real.  There isn't the need to affirm their belief, because the theology of Randland is empirically visible.  I'd also argue that the Aes Sedai fill most of the holes typically served by a religion--serving as moral advisors, preserving the land's philosophy, history, and knowledge, connection to a preternatural force.

Good point!  I can sort of see that to a certain extent.  I mean, the Creator of Randland is actually Robert Jordan and the creator of RJ is James Rigney and the... etc...    It would be just weird if RJ had sudenly inserted himself into the story unless

!!! SPOILER ALERT!!!











Verin is actually the Creator as has been surmised by some kook somewhere. 

  I have been so amused by certain forums, not here, that contain frustrated querries like, "If Rand can do this and Nynaeve can do that, then why don't they..."  I just want to gently remind them that Randland is a limited world created by a finite human.  There are inconsistencies and mistakes.  On the other hand, our world does not contain flaws in the laws of physics or general design, being created by an all-knowing, all-powerful infinite being.  All the flaws are due to sinful human behavior, according to the Bible.

   It is to RJ's credit that he created a world that, if one does not over-analyze (have I done that?), one can get lost in the many intricacies that border on perfection but don't really achieve it.  And now Brandon has to put all the pieces together.  Whew!

Quote from: mtbikemom on December 20, 2008, 12:02:30 PM

     Hmmm... makes me think of a certain John Lennon song which I despise.

Any thoughts about my proposed reason in the last post on page 6?

  Again, it's just another secular fantasy, a world without an active Creator in which there are no temples of worship, no clergy (speaking of the Two Rivers culture) and no basis for the strict codes by which they live.  You'll have to find me an example on earth of a culture devoid of a codified belief system in which human rights, especially rights of lower classes and women, prevail.  Go ahead, I dare ya!

   Now, at least two other cultures have well-defined religions in WOT.  For certain city states (Tear and that place where Cadsuane was from) RJ gave excellent background for their beliefs and it helped explain their sometimes strange behavior throughout.  But the Two rivers folk just seem to be humming "Imagine" throughout, but acting like good Mormons, Baptists, Quakers... you-name-it benevolent belief system that emphasizes respect for all life.  I'll say it again one more time, that is not within human nature for that kind of a system to develop in a religion-free environment. (Wikpedia says, "A religion is a of way of life based on tenets (or a belief system) about the ultimate power. It is generally expressed through conducts such as prayers, rituals, or other practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality (the cosmos, and human nature) which may yield a set of religious laws.")  Anyone care to defend my opinion?

   I will try to move this thread elsewhere as it is continuing to intrigue some and I think JoeC would rather we ramble about his delightful journey through WOT rather than philosophize endlessly about things he'd rather not think about.  Right?

I think that morality is really tied more to culture than religion, it's just that religion tends to be a major part of culture.  In the case of the WoT, the (single) religion is really little more than the acknowledged facts that the Creator and Dark One exist, are good and evil respectively, and that the Dark One is constantly trying to break free from his prison and destroy/remake the world.  There is no real religious doctrine that I've noticed aside from "oppose the Dark One" (also "don't name the Dark One", which makes you wonder how his name seems to be universally known) and the basic tenets of the religion are universally accepted as fact, so there is no need for churches or priests.

"... imagine all the people living for today..."   Imagine chaos, rampant slavery, tyrants' rule and all the evils of the Soviet Union and North Korea covering the globe.  That is what happens when religion and worship are removed, not "living life in peace," Mr. Lennon.

Actually, that progress bar is based on a 400k word estimate for the book which is now known to be too low by 200-300k.  He kept it at 100%=400k words mainly because that seemed an achievable end-of-year goal, I think, though also to prevent getting bombarded by questions about why the progress indicator went down by 1/3 or so.

   I know, I know, I'm just being enthusiastic about any and all progress.  By this time next year, if I am not mistaken, those of us who have invested ourselves in this story will probably be reading its hopefully-satisfying conclusion with a lovely hardcover book in our eager hands.     

   Respectfully, BanD, I did not say there was no religion in WOT, I said that certain characters seemed to have no explanation for their innate morality.   Curious that so many fantasy novels are set in medieval-like settings, yet lack a key part of that culture: churches.  Hmmm... makes me think of a certain John Lennon song which I despise.

   JoeC, if you are not going to miss Rand's pov (point of view) and you actually enjoy RJ's endless descriptions , you will do just fine finishing TWoT, methinks.  You may even enjoy the two books I could not abide.  Don't forget to use http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/ (carefully) if you come across a character that you need a reminder about.  It lists everything that every character ever said and did, but don't read too far down to avoid spoilers.  You may need this for books 8-11.

   Hooray, Brandon, for coming to the close of the first draft of book 12!  What discipline!  I can't wait.

I date myself, but I still listen to Shawn Colvin.  She's one of the best singer/songwriters around, especially the early stuff which never became popular.  Intelligent lyrics, though moody.

I also enjoy Sara Groves, Switchfoot and Reliant K, my daughter's favorite. 

New music: check out Citizen Cope.  Surprisingly thoughtful young hip hop songwriter. 

I'm not a hall monitor, I have just seen this happen here before. Power too you if you want to continue posting about this. I for one enjoy reading this thread due to its relationship with WoT and not religion.

Monsta, baby, and dear JoeC, please allow me to apologize for ranting just a bit within this thread.  Are you both acquainted with the term "stream of consciousness?"  I have a bad habit of writing that way.  I am a newbie and perpetual lurker who has found a place to intelligently, I hope, discuss certain topics pertaining to fantasy that interest me.  I am also timid about starting a new thread, unfamiliar as I am with the way these things work, but I have enjoyed being listened-to and I have appreciated some of the comments. 

In my defense, this was all for Joe's benefit, thereby on topic, and anyone else who is enjoying reading his posts as a new WOT reader.  I used to see similar ideas shared on Dragomount's forums, but not with a great deal of thoughtfulness or maturity sometimes.  Nevertheless, they enhanced my appreciation of my second read-through TWoT whether I agreed or not.  Got me thinking about themes I had not considered before... isn't that what literary discussions are all about?

I am not politically correct in my opinions and I never will be.  I have a feeling that this forum is a somewhat safe place for dangerous ideas like mine.   My theme was not, if one reads carefully, religion/faith per se but, rather, how certain well-known authors explain the motivations behind their morally-minded characters.  And how their worldview affects how they world-build.  I guess those ideas belong on the writers' forum or elsewhere.  Bear with me... I will figure this thing out!

If anyone is interested, I posted an introduction to myself in the "recent projects" thread.  I hadn't yet run across the introduction section... oops again.  I welcome personal messages, but will ignore anything closed-minded or lacking respectfulness.

  Let's not get bent out of shape, dearest Time Wasters, by unpopular opinions.  This is the American way and the reason my grandpa fought in two wars.   Sharing one's faith, even just in passing, should not be construed as an attack against anything, should it?

The people in the bigger cities and more populated areas have had to deal with bandits, thieves, and the dark one's agents for years.  This forces those people to push what they would normally do. 

Ah, that suggests that people, if left to their own devices and with minimal stresses in their environment, are basically good.  I don't believe that is true, so the debate ends here if you do. 

I believe RJ revealed a similar unspoken premise, conscious or not, that the corrupting nature of power/authority, not to mention notice by the DO, and the intrinsic evil of big-city life are what's missing from the isolated Two Rivers society.  My offering here is this: the intrinsic and abiding goodness of a group of people should be explained, it is not natural.  It is a common omission leading to weak character development in many genres of literature, but is more glaring in fantasy because of the tendency to portray good vs. evil, which requires defining them and, hopefully, explaining motivation.

RJ was very good at portraying the ill effects of following various faulty belief systems, though.  And the problems adhering to a "good" one that seems ridiculous to everyone but its followers.  He just forgot to give his main characters a basis for their collective morality. 

My beef is mainly that religion is largely ignored in most of fantasy, including Tolkien who revealed how impersonal his own deity was to him by having (?) throw an "angel" or two into Middle Earth and hoping for the best.  This is a problem with our culture in general.  Almost everyone wants to be their own god and that person, as an author, writes worlds without benevolent creator or religion.  These worlds are as empty as the lives of people without faith in something better than themselves.  We all worship something...

Mr. Sanderson's worlds are much more compelling because of his more-careful understanding of human nature than is commonly found.  I am enjoying that as I read.

Consensus seems to be: Too bad a talented, imaginative fantasy writer like Martin is also quite a bit "off."  His sort of book what I try to avoid when asking for recommendations for reliable books, any genre, that won't damage my soul in the enjoyment, and why I have begun to read your EUOL's stuff lately.  Just getting to the end of Mistborn 1.  Enjoyable and reliable!

Please let me know if any of you have read Carol Berg yet!   I found one review of Song of the Beast here, but that is not her best.