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Messages - happyman

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: ***SPOILERS Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon*
« on: November 13, 2008, 08:31:18 PM »
Quote from: Shadowkiller on November 13, 2008, 01:15:42 PM
I have a theory about the people staying sick longer.   I expect the method used by Preservation to snap the mistings doesn't mix well with Atium, hense why those people stayed sick longer.   I also wonder if "Atium mistings", I quote cause this is a name given by BS and not confirmed by book, could burn any and all alloys of Atium therefore not being mistings at all but rather Atium-born.

The book uses both the terms "Atium misting" (it's the obvious method) and "Seer" (Yomen uses this one, and it's a very natural name for it) to describe someone who can burn only Atium.

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Brandon Sanderson / Why HoA *had* to end the way it did *Spoilers*
« on: November 13, 2008, 07:04:58 PM »
To begin this thread, I would like to say that I really, really liked HoA on the first read-through, and that hasn't changed at all since then.  I found the ending satisfying emotionally, and although there were several questions I wanted answered, I agree with the decision to not put them in the book.

Because of this, I didn't think too deeply about Vin and Elend's deaths at the end.  I knew it had happened, and its a bit jarring to think of Mistborn without them, but it wasn't a major issue for me, especially with the afterlife alluded to  in the epilogue.  However, I have seen many other forum posts (and more than a couple of Amazon.com reviews) which were negative, and I strongly suspect that at least some of that comes from the ending (more than one referenced the ending in a non-spoilerish way as being 'bad' or 'disappointing' and I seriously doubt that it's Sazed's ascension they are referring to).  These posts got me thinking about their deaths, and I've come to some conclusions that I feel need to be expressed.

Vin and Elend were good people with high ideals who lived during very hard times.  I'm not completely certain where Vin got her ideals from, but she acted on them most of the time.  Elend largely got his ideals from books, but he also acted on them, especially in WoA, where he stepped down as king, willing to obey the rule of law.  Unfortunately, the hard times they lived in forced them to make hard decisions.

They got involved in wars.  Some of the things they did got people killed.  When they deliberately let the villagers stand out in the mists, people died from that.  When they let their troops stand in the mists, people died.  I think their decisions were the right ones, but they were still the people that made the decisions that directly lead to the death of innocents.  When Elend decided to keep the city from Straff, people died in the resulting battles, perhaps more than would have if he had let Straff take everything.

These examples go on and on.  I don't have much time left, but I know that we could multiply these examples by ten.  They spend a lot of time worrying about these decisions, which is good, but the fact remains that they made them.  The only thing I can think of that really didn't match up was when Vin slaughtered Cett's retinue.  And she knew it afterwards, and she was tricked into it.

Again, I think they made the right decisions for the most part.  I think that the decisions they made really were for the best, even if they didn't always work out for the best.  But I think that, in all honesty, it wasn't simply enough for them to say that they were sacrificing people's lives because it was for the best.  I think that for the sake of completeness, for the sake of integrity, for the sake of living above and beyond the here and now, that they had to show that they were sacrificing other people for the good of the rest.

This part is tricky because every way I think of saying it feels like understatement, but what better way could Brandon have of showing that they were really, honestly, deeply, truly sacrificing others only for the good of all, than to sacrifice themselves?  What I'm talking about here isn't something trite, like the cliched "redemption=death," but rather simple character consistency.  Which would you rather have as the main characters:  ones who let others die, knowing it is inevitable, but saving themselves despite the negative consequences, or ones who, when it really becomes necessary, go to the chopping block as willingly as the soldiers they already sent to their deaths?  We all know which category Vin and Elend belong in, not because they told us but because they showed us.  Thus the ending was a necessary part of their character arcs, not an unfortunate ending tacked on "just because."  It completed them, just like Kelsier's death completed him.

Thus I actually hope that Brandon does not bring them back.  It would seem like cheating, in some ways.  Many, many people died during the final days of the world.  Doubtless their loved ones would like to have them back as well.  It seems like special pleading to get the named characters back alive but leave everybody else to suffer alone, especially when we can give a name and a purpose to the being who would be responsible for the return.  I, personally, would like it if even Sazed couldn't bring them back from the dead, at least for the moment.

Anyway, that's my thoughts.  Any comments?  I'm certain at least a few people will disagree with me.

723
Brandon Sanderson / Re: Was this deliberate foreshadowing? *spoilers*
« on: November 13, 2008, 05:49:03 PM »
Yeah, I'm thinking it was deliberate.  It's just...wow.  Step by little step, the impossible became possible, and the meaning of the first book changed.

Brandon, I am seriously impressed.  That was really subtle foreshadowing, and it came off completely naturally the first time around.  I almost didn't notice it the second time around, in fact.  Now I'm going to have to see if your other books did things this smoothly.

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Brandon Sanderson / Was this deliberate foreshadowing? *spoilers*
« on: November 12, 2008, 06:53:41 PM »
Just this morning rereading FE, I came upon this little tidbit.  Vin is listening to Kelsier and Dox talk about the plan and came up with this little thought(page 85, paperback)

Quote
So, are they serious about the plan?  Or is this still a show for my sake?  The two men seemed so competent.  Yet, overthrowing the Final Empire?  They'd sooner stop the mists from flowing or the sun from rising. (Emphasis mine.)

and again on page 112,

Quote
And yet, the group regarded their list of "problems" with determination.  There was a grim mirth about them---as if they understood that they had a better chance of making the sun rise at night than they did of overthrowing the Final Empire.  Yet, they were still going to to try.

Anyway, if this was deliberate, then well done.  On the first read-through, these ideas sound like absolutely impossibilities.  No less than 5 years later, book time, Vin has done all of them and as a reader I didn't feel even a little bit cheated...

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: ***SPOILERS Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon*
« on: November 12, 2008, 02:01:27 AM »
Quote from: syrenyx on November 11, 2008, 08:18:43 PM
just finished HOA last night. oh man. it was so good. i couldnt sleep afterwards.

im a little suprised gold was never used in the second and third books. but i guess there was no use for it...?
it would probably suck to be a gold misting...

Oh, yeah.  Big time.  You snap, it hurts like nothing else, and then you find out that your secret power is knowing that you could have married that gorgeous girl  you wanted to ask out in High School, but never had the nerve?  Not the kind of power I would want, frankly.  Sometimes we are better off not knowing.

726
Brandon Sanderson / Re: Who were Preservation and Ruin before they became forces? *Spoilers*
« on: November 12, 2008, 01:57:11 AM »
Quote from: syrenyx on November 11, 2008, 08:22:39 PM
perhaps two humans (early on in time...whatever that may mean) just found the forces (similar to when sazed found them at the end coming from vin and ruin) though, instead of one person getting them both, it was split between two people, two minds, and therefore could not work together as intended.
maybe it was cain and abel or something.. haha

This would work better if it weren't stated pretty clearly that they are shards of something larger.

No, the backstory here is going to be a bit more involved than all this.

727
Brandon Sanderson / Re: Who were Preservation and Ruin before they became forces? *Spoilers*
« on: November 11, 2008, 05:23:27 PM »
Quote from: Shadowkiller on November 10, 2008, 06:48:30 PM
Quote from: happyman on November 10, 2008, 06:30:26 PM
Au contraire.  Sazed said there was something very deep and fundamental about the number sixteen, something that related to the way the universe itself worked.  He said that Preservation used 16 because it was so fundamental to the way the world worked, Ruin couldn't counter it.  He said, in fact, that he didn't fully understand all the implications of 16, even with his expanded intellect.  Thus I feel that my statement is a solid speculation firmly based on canon.  If you wish a citation for this reference, I will  have to get it later.  It was one of the bumps after the Allomancy/Mist connection had been found.

As for Sazed absorbing two of them:  That doesn't change the number of powers, just the number of personalities controlling the powers.  I still suspect that there are sixteen powers, or shards.  If they are being recombined, then good for them.  They were, after all, apparently one once.
I'll bow down to you on this one. I only took note of the fact that Sazed said Preservation used the number 16 to let the people know he was doing something and apparently ignored/forgot the rest.

As to the 5 or 6 shards thing, I'm fairly certain BS said that we had encountered 4 other shards beyond Ruin and Preservation.   I don't think he indicated how many there were total.

The bump to chapter 71:

Quote
There is something special about the number sixteen.  For one thing, it was Preservation's sign to mankind.

Preservation knew, even before he imprisoned Ruin, that he wouldn't be able to communicate with humankind once he diminished himself.  And so, he left clues---clues that couldn't be altered by Ruin.  Clues that related back to the fundamental laws of the universe.  That number was meant to be proof that something unnatural was happening, and that there was help to be found.

It may have taken us long to figure this out, but when we eventually did understand the clue---late though it was---it provided a much-needed boost.

As for the other aspects of the number...well, even I am still investigating that.  Suffice it to say that it has great ramifications regarding how the world, and the universe itself, works.

And that's what I remember as well.  We've "met" a few other shards, but there has been no statement on how many there are.

728
Brandon Sanderson / Re: Who were Preservation and Ruin before they became forces? *Spoilers*
« on: November 10, 2008, 06:30:26 PM »
Quote from: Shadowkiller on November 10, 2008, 03:31:41 PM
Quote from: happyman on November 10, 2008, 03:18:45 AM
On a side note, anyone wanna bet that there are 16 shards?
I would bet against there being 16 shards.   Sazed said 16 was the number that Preservation used to let people know he was doing something.   There is no indication that the number 16 went above and beyond that.   Plus if there were 16, Sazed now brought the number down to 15 by absorbing two of them.

Au contraire.  Sazed said there was something very deep and fundamental about the number sixteen, something that related to the way the universe itself worked.  He said that Preservation used 16 because it was so fundamental to the way the world worked, Ruin couldn't counter it.  He said, in fact, that he didn't fully understand all the implications of 16, even with his expanded intellect.  Thus I feel that my statement is a solid speculation firmly based on canon.  If you wish a citation for this reference, I will  have to get it later.  It was one of the bumps after the Allomancy/Mist connection had been found.

As for Sazed absorbing two of them:  That doesn't change the number of powers, just the number of personalities controlling the powers.  I still suspect that there are sixteen powers, or shards.  If they are being recombined, then good for them.  They were, after all, apparently one once.

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Who were Preservation and Ruin before they became forces? *Spoilers*
« on: November 10, 2008, 03:18:45 AM »
Quote from: Chaos2651 on November 09, 2008, 08:44:24 PM
Further in the spoiler thread, Brandon unveiled their names. Preservation is Leras (hence, its deific metal is Lerasium) and Ruin is Ati (as in, atium).

Yeah, but names aren't much.  The real question is---were they really human?  Or were they somehow shadows of something else? (I propose no theory on the subject myself, and would respectfully request to not be held to any of these musings as though I believed them with any real commitment.  I do not.)  If we accept that some of EUOL's other books occur in the same universe, humans seem to be a pretty common commodity, all the same but different (different magic, different skills, but still basically human).

I explicitly remember Ruin (OK, Ati) telling Vin that he and Leras had seen humans before, so something deeper is going on.

On a side note, anyone wanna bet that there are 16 shards?

730
Brandon Sanderson / Re: ***SPOLIERS Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon*
« on: October 31, 2008, 03:26:02 PM »
Quote from: WickedNess on October 31, 2008, 03:20:51 PM
Quote from: Arionhawk on October 31, 2008, 03:10:46 PM
1. The allomantic spike doesn't need to pierce directly into the person when that person is killed, it just loses some of it's power when outside of a body.  Marsh's inner monologue tells all how it works when he's going to spike Lord Penrod.  Also Vin's mother was under the control of Ruin, so the killing of her younger sister was probably pretty dang gruesome.

No she wasn't. She was just crazy.

Um, yes.  Yes she was.  Sazed implies as much in Book 3 in one of the bumps.  Vin was the perfect opportunity---Mistborn, Misting sister, crazy mother.  Ruin jumped at it.  Of course, it was poisoned bait by Preservation.

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: ***SPOLIERS Official Hero of Ages Spoilers Thread. Includes Q&A w/Brandon*
« on: October 29, 2008, 09:54:57 PM »
Quote from: Shadowkiller on October 29, 2008, 09:37:51 PM
Ahh, but Sazed did say in his blurbs that Kelsier came up with this legend of the eleventh metal out of nowhere.   Nobody else had ever heard it nor was there any books about it.   It was suspected that Kelsier was being influenced somehow.   That of course is going off memory so the details could be off a bit but it should be pretty close to what was said.   Sazed also said that it was surprising the number of people that were spiked, Vin of course being the obvious surprise.   But it was never said if Kelsier had gotten some sort of spike.   I suspect that Kelsier lost his mind in the mines and a voice came and helped him out.   Afterall, they did say that Kelsier was a different man after the mines.

Isn't it possible that Ruin influenced someone else who told him the legend?

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Categories for metals: thoughts (HoA spoilers)
« on: October 27, 2008, 06:07:18 PM »
While I understand the obsessive need to get everything in order, it seems that Brandon wouldn't have left us with this many loose ends lying around.  I'm certain most of the metals are properly identified.  Don't forget that Marsh explicitly said that Allomantic pulses have properties which can be sensed which determine where on the chart they go.  I expect that all eight basic metals have been categorized properly simply because Seekers and Mistborn would have noticed the discrepancies otherwise.  In some ways, I suspect Brandon has veered from strict logic simply to provide narratively useful powers, a decision which I heartily approve.

The only real holes that have been left open that I can see are:

1) Lerasium and Atium are clearly deific metals---truly and fundamentally different from the "natural" metals.  I expect that both have alloys which do more complicated things, things which tap into much deeper powers than the other metals.  Lerasium, for instance, grants full Mistborn Allomancy, and its alloys create Mistings.

2) This leaves a hole in the temporal metals.  It will probably be filled at some point.  It probably won't be as effective as atium.

Besides that, I really think we have to rely on Word of God, God being Brandon Sanderson in this case.

733
Brandon Sanderson / Re: Mineral Deficiency and other Random Questions
« on: October 26, 2008, 07:20:19 PM »
Quote from: Reaves on October 26, 2008, 04:13:55 PM
the reason Vin didn't burn the last two isn't because she didn't have access to them, but because she didn't know what they were. It seems like an Allomancer has to actually search for the stores of metal they imbibe, it doesn't just appear. She was too busy fighting for her life to bother searching for metals that she didn't even know existed and might not even be of any help.

I think this is correct.  I was going to say that I didn't think the last two metals would have helped her, but it occurred to me that Chromium could have been fantastically useful.  A normal mistborn with Chromium could probably beat an Inquisitor.  So I think we just have to say she didn't notice the virtual metal stores.

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Possible Allomantic Metals
« on: October 26, 2008, 07:15:13 PM »
It seems to me that this thread should be marked for possible spoilers.  I have comments I'd like to make, but I'm not certain what the protocol is here.

735
Brandon Sanderson / Re: For the Crew: Elmandr's Bet *SPOILERS*
« on: October 23, 2008, 10:59:59 PM »
Quote from: elmandr1 on October 23, 2008, 09:53:04 PM
Quote
i believe, that the mist spirit is the collective souls of the HOA's of the past.

And that the HOA of today must unite with the mist spirit to destroy Ruin...That would explain why Ruin would want the world to think it evil--and that why i think it changed that part of the prophecy as well.

I don't think that deepness is the correct word.

Ruin altered it--i don't know what the word actually is but that's no it.

Vin wields the mists once...it essentially gives her powers that no other HOA can have...

Mist spirit has control over mist...

mist is formless mass of infinite energy...

so, what do y'all think?


first off I'd like to thank you Qarlin, as i was to lazy to look for the original posts--even if they held the poof that i so needed to prove my case.

Quite  a statement given that the consensus of the thread is against you.  Me included.  He's definitely guilty!

Quote from: elmandr1 on October 23, 2008, 09:53:04 PM

so thanks for that.

Did any of us know that the mist and the mist spirit were two different entities.

Several of us suspected it, yes.

Quote from: elmandr1 on October 23, 2008, 09:53:04 PM

 Did anyone know they were the same?


They were definitely not the same.  They were two different and distinct aspects of a larger thing.  Saying they were the same is like saying that your personality and your body are the same thing; they may be intimately connected, but even the most determined materialist would admit that it is possible to separate the two.

Quote from: elmandr1 on October 23, 2008, 09:53:04 PM

surely no one suspected that they were both the same and different. Yet you say that because of the unsureness of what it was i meant--that it should be taken literally. Well, read carefully what i said. I refer to Vin wielding the mist--and yet i said she would unite with the spirit. i mention that the evilness of the Deepness is another of Ruins alterations--and yet i speak of the Spirit.

I even mention that the mist is endless power. So, for your understanding, when i say mist spirit it is obvious i believed that they were essentially the same. i was wrong in that sense. However Vin did wield the mist as i said. She did kill ruin with it.


You're stretching things here.  Very badly.  You claimed that the mist spirit was the conglomeration of the souls of previous Heroes of Ages.  This is not the same as the mists.  In point of fact, you claim that the mist spirit controls the mists (which it doesn't).  Although you made good points about the power in the mists and them not being evil, the key point---that Vin would merge with the mist spirit---did not happen.  And everybody, including you, thought they were distinct before the bet took place.

Quote from: elmandr1 on October 23, 2008, 09:53:04 PM


I did attempt to explain why. Or to assume how or what it would mean for her to take the power. Saying that it was the Collective souls of past HOA's. That. since it does not concern directly with the argument should be ignored.

Someone said that this is just a desperate attempt to not eat a hat--i have something to say to that; This is a fight for my name. I argue that i should be addressed as lord or Sir. The idea of me eating a hat is secondary. I am right anyway, just read between the lines, and be objective.

I i hadn't made the punishment as exciting as it is--you all wouldn't be so eager to see me charged...curse me demented creativity.

It's probably not an attempt to not eat you're hat.  I have noticed, however, that you have sometimes been rather more strongly attached to your theories than the evidence would admit, and that you tend to interpret moderate criticism as support if it concedes enough points.  This is a similar case.  Once again, however, I must disagree with you.

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