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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Ruin and Preservation
« on: March 06, 2008, 07:16:13 PM »
Eureka! I have discovered the reference! Mists59 is absolutely correct to whatere the reference is. Thank you for that clue :D.

The alpha readers seem hesitant to tell where this reference is. I will mention it precisely. So, if you are a fan who doesn't want the third book ruined before it comes out, I suggest you stop reading this post (and for that matter, future posts that are based on this one). Don't say I didn't warn you.

Page 299, Well of Ascension. Second to last paragraph. Just like mists59 said, it's during the chat where OreSeur discusses religion with Vin.

"Of course not," OreSeur said. "We honor our Contract, even in religion. The stories say that you'll kill yourselves off. You're of Ruin, after all, while the kandra are of Preservation. You're... actually supposed to destroy the world, I believe. Using the koloss as pawns."

I would transcribe more, but I don't want to infringe on Brandon's and Tor's copyrights. Look it up for the full conversation.

This little discussion is so much more than a simple reference to Ruin and Preservation. Let's dissect!

1. Brandon capitalized Ruin and Preservation. That means it's important. We already know they are, but this can just be considered confirmation.
2. "You're of Ruin, after all" OreSeur says. This has some more meaningful implications. First, it means that kandra know of legends. This information just rolls off his tongue, nonchalantly, like it's obvious.

The next couple things go off of the kandra.

3. Earlier on the page, it says that the kandra have a separate religion away from the Lord Ruler's oppression. This is significant because...
4. ...It means that this is how Kelsier found the Eleventh Metal. If kandra are the only things separated from the Lord Ruler, then they would have to be the source of the legends that Kelsier found (see MB1 annotations for more details. Brandon states that he will reveal where Kelsier got these legends in the third book). The question must be asked, then, why the kandra would support Kelsier and tell him legends.

The kandra don't like the Lord Ruler. I've been taking notes on this Well of Ascension readthrough, and I have details supporting this theory.

Page 203 - OreSeur says that more Allomancers existed during the early days of the Final Empire. Mistborn can somehow "find" kandra, and the Lord Ruler was hunting them down with those Mistborn. OreSeur continues that his people created the Contract to stop that hunt.

Furthermore, this animosity is confirmed on Page 118, where Vin recalls that Kelsier said Renoux (OreSeur) had to keep away from Steel Inquisitors and the Lord Ruler.

This is crucial. Earlier in this topic, we came to the consensus that the Lord Ruler touched the Preservation power at the Well of Ascension. As OreSeur says, kandra are of Preservation, humans Ruin. The Lord Ruler, if he is Preservation, perhaps decided to keep the kandra because he and the kandra are both Preservation, but he didn't "create" the kandra. He does not have power over them explicitly. If he had dominance over them, he would not need Mistborn to hunt down the kandra.

Getting back to Kelsier and the kandra. On the aforementioned page 299 of revelation, it says that kandra religion says that they hope that their oppressors (humans) will perish, and they will be free from the Contract. However, they themselves cannot kill humans, because of the Contract. So, to me, it seems logical that if Kelsier was out to hire a kandra (for his plan in MB1) for express purpose of defeating the Lord Ruler, the kandra would be ecstatic to help him.

Going off of the Ruin/Preservation duality, the kandra must know the obvious fact that defeating the Lord Ruler will cause chaos. Well of Ascension shows this explicitly. Warlords are pining for control. People are using the koloss as pawns (not effectively, but still). They are destroying themselves, like OreSeur says.

They did not help Kelsier because they like Kelsier. They want to help Kelsier so the Lord Ruler, humanity's source of Preservation, would die, so humans would do what comes naturally to them. Cause war. Chaos. And well, Ruin. After the years of Ruin, all humanity would die, and the kandra would no longer need the Contract, because you can't serve a people who are dead.

I'm giddy that I'm the one to discover this. Like Kwaan :D.

There's one thing I haven't found. On the first page, Ookla links me here. There, other Alpha Readers say that the Ruin Entity's name is explicitly referenced in MB2. I've discovered the reference of Ruin and Preservation, but the Ruin Entity's name eludes me.

Suggestions, here? The best I can come up with is that Humanity is the Ruin Entity, or some weird crap like that. Or the Ruin Entity isn't mysterious, but a human. Something like that. Unless I'm missing something, which is entirely possible.

Either way, I feel very certain Kelsier got his legends from the kandra. That much is certain.

And when I'm done with Well of Ascension, I'm going to make another topic. This one about direct references to Steel Inquisitors, in a hope to get some information about Hemalurgy. But that's for another day.

Brandon Sanderson / Re: Ruin and Preservation
« on: March 05, 2008, 07:21:27 PM »
I agree, there's definitely a light/dark and good/evil duality going on. But, like Miriel mentioned, the Lord Ruler is a force of Preservation to the extreme, so much that it stagnates the world. And technically, the Lord Ruler is evil, too, because of all his atrocities. That means even the paragon of Preservation, the Lord Ruler, can be evil.

Therefore, it can be reasonably presumed that good/evil is independent of Ruin and Preservation. Ruin/Preservation are forces, not ideals.

So rather than "good" completely winning out, there will have to be a balance struck at the end of MB3, to prevent another Lord Ruler from existing. Plus, doing something like that seems like the typical, cliche-breaking thing Brandon would do.

I like the wheel that shows the Allomantic metals. If only it was in 1440x900... then I'd actually use it.

And it also reveals the 15th and 16th metals, so thanks for that Brandon. :D

Brandon Sanderson / Re: Ruin and Preservation
« on: March 04, 2008, 10:15:38 PM »
As long as its not as long as Paolini's Inheritance "trilogy". Supposedly that third book got so long it was split to two books.

But then again, these alpha readers can attest to, they've already read the book. So we know it can't be that long.

Brandon Sanderson / Re: Atium Mistings?
« on: March 04, 2008, 07:47:27 PM »
Sorry to blow your entire discussion here, but during my second readthrough of WoA, I noticed on p. 26, when Vin burns atium in the first battle of the book, that only a Mistborn can burn atium.

Either we take that as very literal fact, or we think about the fact that apparently, Mistings only exist in the first eight "basic" Allomantic metals, yet that's only half of all the metals (if you take in account the existence of metal 15 and 16). Any ideas why that is?

Brandon Sanderson / Re: Ruin and Preservation
« on: March 04, 2008, 07:43:19 PM »
its mentioned in mb2 when vin and the kandra are discussing religions. he is telling her that humans are destined to destroy the world using the koloss as their servants. he mentions that we(humans) are of ruin and they(kandra) are of preservation. i think!!! :)

hope that helps

Aha! Well, I've already begun my second WoA readthrough, so if its in the book, I'll find it. As of page 120, neither "ruin" or "preservation" has appeared in the book. Either way, I'll work my through the entire book, because the scenes at the Conventical of Seran were very illuminating about the Steel Inquisitors. They leave mystery, sure, but mystery, in a way, is illuminating. I guess.

Miriel - Yeah, that's why I was kinda confusing myself with this thread's first post. The Lord Ruler is really more Preservation, to the extreme, like you said.

But, maybe it's just my need for symmetry and logic, that if the Well held the power of Preservation (which the Lord Ruler subsequently touched), then how the crap did the Ruin Entity get there? I hope, with all the hordes Brandon has to explain in MB3 (Hemalurgy, the Ruin/Preservation duality, why the ash falls, wrapping up the trilogy in a sweet ending, and let's not forget the 15th/16th metals), he doesn't forget little facts like that :P

darxbane - I would totally take that burden. Hint hint, Brandon. Just saying.

Feynmanfan, I was thinking the same thing the minute I saw that 3/4's circle.

Of course, aluminum and duralumin are the internal metals of this quartet of metals (if you don't like that term, I'm open for suggestions :D), so if anything is set in stone about the 15th and 16th, is that they are external in nature. Any other speculation is very meaningless...

Brandon Sanderson / Re: Ruin and Preservation
« on: March 04, 2008, 05:24:45 AM »
Well, you go tell Brandon that when he mentions something like that in the annotations, he's just asking for forum goers and theorists to pour over it like the tidbit was a drop of water in the Sahara. :D Heck, if he just said something as simple as "Elend pwns" (or if that's too lowly language for him, "Elend is super awesome"), I'm sure that would give credence for a certain theory that says Elend's power is from the WoA, which obviously means he will become the most powerful Mistborn in MB3.

For future reference, I do hate you. So... long... to... wait... for... MB3. Just so you have that all cleared up. I don't know if it's right for me to say, but my anticipation for that book is beyond belief.

Now I will go through all of MB2 to find it! I'll probably stay up pouring until midnight and my eyes are all exhausted beyond belief, tears of fatigue blinding me so I can't even see the words!

*cries* If only there was a Find option like Firefox or Word had... then it would be so easy.  Search "Ruin and preservation", then it would tell me the answer I so desire. Though, telling me in that thread you linked me to that it's "out of context" and that they are mentioned in the same sentence, I will find it, by the Lord Ruler! Even if it takes me multiple readthroughs!

And in lieu of a better term (or until I find it), I hereby proclaim that the WoA spirit to be called the Ruin Entity, just because it sounds cool.

On a completely different note, how did I not see that Zane is controlled by the Ruin Entity? I seriously just thought he was some asshole psychopath the entire time in MB2...

Brandon Sanderson / Re: Ruin and Preservation
« on: March 03, 2008, 11:41:24 PM »
How do YOU know, lol? That's no fair :P

They are mentioned in MB2? I don't think it said that explicitly, or at least not obviously. Sigh. Do you know about what chapter it's mentioned in? Because scrolling through annotations is one thing. WoA is a beast to find instances of two words...

EDIT: It's been a couple of months since I read MB1, but yesterday I read all of it after Kelsier's death, and it didn't mention it there, so I doubt highly it is. Before MB3 comes out I'll reread them both, but if it isn't mentioned in the annotations either, it isn't there. :D

Brandon Sanderson / Ruin and Preservation
« on: March 03, 2008, 07:17:32 PM »
I discovered something very interesting as I was reading through the MB1 annotations. says an interesting fact about the Lord Ruler.

I put the Lord Ruler in black and white--rather than just black, as I'd originally planned--to give metaphoric reference to his belief that he is God. He's both black and white--he encompasses all, and controls all. Of course, he's faking. In the mythology of this world, there are two forced--Ruin and Preservation--and he really only touched one of the two powers. But, then, we'll have more on that in later books.

Ruin and Preservation. This is probably the most crucial piece of information I've uncovered from the MB1 annotations (and yes, it took a herculean effort to say "crucial" instead of "interesting" a third time). I'm fairly certain this hasn't been discussed in the forum yet, so, let's talk about it here.\

Obviously this is a colossal revelation to... well, everything. The Allomancy-Feruchemy-Hemalurgy triads of magics are probably influenced, and most important, the exact nature of the Well of Ascension.

So let's think about this for a minute. The Well, of course, has a lot of power. Since Brandon just said the Lord Ruler touched one of those powers, its the one at the Well. That means we have either Ruin or Preservation to decide from here. This is the important part. We can presume that the Well Spirit inside there (locked away or imprisoned, whatever) is malevolent, sending the Deepness to cause chaos and "ruin" in order to make a Hero set it free. It lends itself to the whole Ruin mechanic there.

And really, the Lord Ruler isn't Mary Poppins. He is quite malevolent himself, and I'm pretty sure that he's responsible for the Ashmounts and the lack of green plants in the Final Empire (I say "pretty sure" because without MB3 out, there could always be something we don't know. Like if the Deepness actually was responsible for it. That's implausible, but I'm just saying. It could be a lot of things). If the Well, essentially, is the quintessential Ruin force, and the Lord Ruler got his power from there, then his power also derives from Ruin.

But then again, in a sense, the Lord Ruler "preserved" the world from certain destruction that the Well Spirit, or perhaps we should be calling the Ruin Entity or something along those lines, would have caused. If that's the case, that totally destroys my theory there.

If the Lord Ruler touched Ruin like I think he did, it could explain why he's a lot more evil. We don't exactly know the effect of what will happen as someone takes the Well's power for himself. Vin describes it like she would have to burn all the power away in a few instances. But you gotta wonder... the Lord Ruler can pierce copperclouds and has more power than even his Allomancy/Feruchemy could do, it seems. I doubt that instead of freeing the Ruin Entity, having it live inside you for a thousand years probably doesn't make you any more good, just more evil (I would think a Preservation influence would whip the Lord Ruler to not do his horrible atrocities).

It's logical to assume that if the Well of Ascension, as we know it, is merely the sum of the Ruin force, there could be a second Well that has the power of Preservation, just for balance sakes. That doesn't make any sense, but it's possible.

Of course, if the Lord Ruler actually touched Preservation at the Well, and the Ruin spirit also lives there (by some strange paradox), then the Well has both powers. But now I'm just confusing myself. Feel free to interpret this information any way you want. God knows I'm just perplexing myself with all of this.

But the whole Ruin/Preservation duality has to be recognized for MB3, that much is certain.

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