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Messages - Wolpertinger

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Cosmere Questions (probable spoilers for EVERYTHING!)
« on: September 14, 2010, 09:55:14 AM »
Quote from: Pechvarry on September 14, 2010, 05:56:43 AM
Ruin and Preservation apparently created humanity on Scadriel.  How can that be?  Those shards are held by humans, which creates a paradox.  Furthermore, the other planets have humans.

On a related note, the other (known) planets have a normal cycle of life and death, a la Earth-as-we-know-it.  How can this be, when Ruin/Preservation are responsible for the circle of life?

My only possible explanation would be that Adonalsium created all the other worlds we've seen before the shattering, while Ruin and Preservation were still simply 2 aspects of a greater whole.   That would make Scadriel a "second generation planet".  Another feasible explanation: all the planets have or had 2 opposite but paired shards, representing multiple ways of reaching the same conclusion.  e.g. Endowment plus something like Acquisition work together to describe the process by which nutrients of dead life forms feed and become part of what is living. 

Anyway, can anyone clear up this confusion? 

As far as I can tell, you're spot on -- Ruin and Preservation created a 'second generation' planet of humans. Presumably, they created said humans to be identical, or as close to identical as possible, to the humans that they used to be.

I'd guess that Adonalsium(sp?) created humans at some point, possibly on only one world, possibly on many.
 After he shattered into tiny pieces, the newly godlike Shards scattered across the universe, either because the shattering of Adonalsium destroyed whatever world they all mutually originated on in the process, or through mutual agreement (spoken or unspoken) insofar in that they all wanted to go out and be gods instead of kill each other off before they had really 'figured out' their godliness and could fight from a position of strength (and their shards hadn't influenced their inner natures yet, so you wouldn't have ruin/preservation at each other's throats or similar opposite pairings), some combination of the two, or something of the nature of the originating world itself, perhaps.

From there, it's possible that the Shards, depending on their natures, created new humans, with their power alone or with the aid of other shards, or had humans 'colonise' from other worlds (possibly including the original).  This would make especial sense if the 'original' human population was wiped out by the Shattering or possibly by a war of 16 new gods immediately after said shattering.  Gods don't like to be without worshippers, and even those who don't care for worship would like to have a humanity to protect or guide or preserve.. or torment or destroy (Ruin would be an empty power without a Preservation to overcome and tear down - he needs something to create so he can destroy).

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: WoK 30 magic systems (spoilers)
« on: September 14, 2010, 09:40:54 AM »
You forgot about Fabrials and Shardblades - Fabrials in and of themselves could be one or many, and Shardblades/Plate could be considered fabrials or something else.. or more.

Here's another possibility - if there are plane-hoppers around, it's also technically possible that some of their magic might show up, as well, adding to that count. It could be a magic we've already seen in previous series, or some hinting at a series to come, perhaps. Not all magic is as.. location-centric as the Aons

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Dalinar's visions *SPOILERS*
« on: September 11, 2010, 01:41:38 AM »
Quote from: happyman on September 10, 2010, 07:19:44 PM
Ten books long, we've got one,  and we're already speculating about the ending?

I hope we get a better story than that for ten books worth of work.  There's gotta be more going on than just a simple battle.  I mean, we've already got hints that the story is going to go cosmic.

Well, we're not exactly speculating about the ending - but it wouldn't be too far-fetched to guess that there will be some massive battles involving huge armies against Voidspawn or something even nastier at some point.  We're mostly just speculating as to what the real purposes of the visions are.

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Sazed, The effects of holding two shards, and Odium
« on: September 10, 2010, 10:48:19 PM »
Quote from: happyman on September 10, 2010, 07:34:20 PM
Actually, because the Lord Ruler took just Preservation's power, in a very real sense the world under him was very much like what Preservation would have been like, although the Lord Ruler was a little bit crazier (thanks to Ruin).

It's almost like each book in Mistborn is thematically related to what happens with each power in control.  In the first book, it's Preservation in charge and Allomancy that get's developed.  In the second, it's the balance in charge (neither has an advantage) and Feruchemy gets developed.  In the third, it's Ruin and Hemalurgy.

Only balance really turned out to be sustainable.

Makes sense - though I'd bet that preservation would want a somewhat more pristine world, but it's true that it might end up having a similarly oppressive society. As far as I can tell, it takes constant exposure to a Shard for it to change your outlook on life - the Lord Ruler's first, disastrous act with the Well's power wasn't much under the aegis of 'preservation'.. though you could say his intent was, whatever the results.

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Sazed, The effects of holding two shards, and Odium
« on: September 10, 2010, 10:04:01 AM »
I suspect Sazed has/will become an aspect which is of both preservation and ruin - perhaps something like a 'cycle of life' - things live and grow and then die and fall apart.

Remember that Preservation's power alone isn't enough for life - it took both Preservation and Ruin to create humans.  I'm sure that if Preservation alone somehow managed to kill off ruin and still stay fully powerful, he wouldn't be an entirely wonderful god either.  If you perfectly "preserved" the world, nothing would ever change, for better or for worse. I would imagine a place of perfect "preservation" would be just.. stasis.

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Dalinar's visions *SPOILERS*
« on: September 09, 2010, 11:06:23 PM »
Quote from: Salkara on September 09, 2010, 10:49:41 PM
Quote from: Wolpertinger on September 09, 2010, 09:59:56 PM
then things might be a step towards slightly less doomed.

From what I've seen, this is not how Brandon's books work.  We will read because he gives us flashes of hope and amazing action sequences, but he will tear at our hearts and souls the rest of the time. Up until the last couple chapters of the last book, it will appear as though Odium is going to win, just like it appeared that Ruin would triumph or Raoden would fail. At the climax, Brandon will kill off half the characters we have come to know and love over more than a decade. Afterward, we will love him for it even more than we did before.

A haphazard recreation of the Radiants would still fit with that, though - I doubt a recreation would be as powerful or skilled or numerous as the original, and probably wouldn't have all the Shardblades, etc. The Heralds are all gone except for one, too.  Having a few new Knights Radiant would be one of those 'flashes of hope' - but in and of itself it would be a drop in the bucket against the True Desolation, presumably.

One thing to also keep in mind is all the previous Desolations were apparently much lesser than the one coming now - they were just 'Desolations' - this one sounds extra-nasty, the 'True Desolation', the 'Everstorm' and all that.  Under that context, you could probably doubt that even all the Radiants in their full glory and all the heralds and all the armies of mankind might still lose under ordinary circumstances.

Regaining some of that lost power wouldn't be making things 'too easy' for the main characters by any means.

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: WOK: Odium (Spoilers)
« on: September 09, 2010, 10:42:01 PM »
Quote from: ryos on September 09, 2010, 10:22:30 PM

Could they have "just stopped fighting"? What does that mean to an organization that exists to fight? No matter how you look at it, refusing to fight would mean the end of the order. And if they retained the power of the shards, tried to keep Urithiru going, you have to imagine that some warlord or other would come against them. They'd be forced to fight again, only they'd be an army of 300 Shardbearers against all of humanity.

Those aren't great odds. As we saw many times, a Shardbearer can be overwhelmed by sheer numbers. Pulling one down is extremely costly, but it can be done.

Supposedly a 'modern' Shardbearer is a pale imitation of a single Knight, though - and if they knew how to fight in formation as well as using whatever magic they had? And considering before the knights disbanded no one but them had Shardplate or Shardblades? That's a huge advantage - The formations would prevent them from being individually overwhelmed, too. I could imagine them easily standing against a human army many times their size.

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Dalinar's visions *SPOILERS*
« on: September 09, 2010, 09:59:56 PM »
Quote from: Rhuan on September 09, 2010, 08:47:57 PM
The aim of attracting an honourspren to one person is unlikely to be the purpose of the visions, one more surgebinder is unlikely to be sufficient to defeat a desolution... They need a general who leads an army of skilled, willing men, and to be such said general will need to be honourable etc.

I see it that the visions were interactive memories followed by a recorded speach.

It could be that, but if it's true one would hope the Almighty set off a lot more plans that we're not aware of yet - like I said earlier, if all the knights radiant orders combined and the ten heralds only barely won, I can't see how an ordinary non-magical army with a few shardblades, one surgebinder, and one weakened herald will have even the slimmest chance.

However, if he could recreate the surgebinder branch of the Knights Radiant (or perhaps even more), and manage to get many surgebinders (or others), then things might be a step towards slightly less doomed.

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Dalinar's visions *SPOILERS*
« on: September 09, 2010, 12:14:55 PM »
Well, yes - he doesn't have an honorspren by the end of book 1, but it's only book 1 of 10 - I was thinking it could be possible that the Almighty's message is trying to set him up (or perhaps using him to set up as many people as possible) into being able to accept one through whatever means an Honorspren sticks to you. You could probably assume that someone who's immoral or dishonorable or Machiavellian (Sadeas comes to mind) would never be able to associate with an honorspren. 

It also sounds dubious that the Almighty's final dying message would be to waste time telepathically encouraging some random guy to be honorable  if it had no point. Presumably his message's goal is to do as much as possible to help mankind prepare for the Desolation/Odium/the Everstorm - offering moral advice without any reason behind it sounds a bit iffy.   

I can't recall offhand - Syl said that she was very vaguely aware of him and followed him around for quite a bit before he became aware of her.. was there any clues as to what event exactly triggered her bonding to him? I'd think it's very unlikely it's just totally random, especially considering it's totally unprecedented as far as all the POV characters know.

It just seems to make a lot of sense - if Honorspren are of 'binding things toogether' , then having the almighty obsessing over his need to 'unite them!' seems to tie into that concept.

It also would make sense that trying to remake the Knights Radiant (or at least their abilities) would be a pretty sensible goal for someone trying to prepare humanity for this apparent final apocalyptic battle.

If the Knights Radiant in their full power along with all ten of the Heralds had so much trouble during a Desolation, I doubt the powerless, bickering human nations with no real power other than leftover Shardplate and Shardblades they could find from the Knights dissolution without even knowing how they are created or even function, and a single half-dead Herald, who I'm guessing is going to have problems even having people believe he IS a Herald (he's a darkeyes, for one), will stand a ghost of a chance against the Voidbringers.

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: WoK: Spren and Hoid (spoilers)
« on: September 09, 2010, 08:32:49 AM »
I sort of noticed the spren-fury thing as well.

 Insofar as I could tell most furies in Codex Alera weren't sentient or were barely sentient - being mindless forces of nature until bound by an Aleran. Seemed like the only ones capable of being almost-sentient in their own right were the massive uber-furies representing mountain ranges, oceans, volcanoes, etc. Even they seemed 'dormant' unless awoken by a person, though.

Though you are right in that Spren are much more numerous and varied than Furies (though furies have many aspects to them, while spren are more singular seeming), they just seem to be a similar idea represented in a different way. Or perhaps a different idea represented in a similar way? We probably won't know 'till we know the real 'secret' of the Spren, which I have no doubt will show they're far more than just the odd.. pixies everyone in-world seems to think they are.

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Dalinar's visions *SPOILERS*
« on: September 09, 2010, 08:18:09 AM »
It just doesn't make sense as a totally uninteractive recording (namely the equivalent of watching a video, or something), because of all the little things he did which were obviously not the actual results of what happened, like slaying the monster with an iron poker, and acting extremely out of character as the guard and the advisor and getting appropriate responses.

 I understand that yes, it's likely a 'message', perhaps from an Almighty already dead or perhaps who is currently being slain or was slain just before the series started - but I was more thinking that perhaps a godly message can be more intricate than a mere recording being randomly broadcasted out. 

For one, why did it choose Dalinar in particular, but no one else (as far as we know)? Almost no one would have been as receptive to the message in the way Dalinar has. He's a uniquely.. obsessive and honorable persion, who happens to be in a position of power that might be capable of 'uniting' people.

It's possible it was capable of 'seeking out' an appropriate recipient - if it's that complex, it's also possible it could be a message capable at least somewhat self-tailoring itself to the person in question, as well.

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Brandon Sanderson / Re: Dalinar's visions *SPOILERS*
« on: September 09, 2010, 02:01:17 AM »
Quote
I think it's possible to act honorably without opening yourself to be betrayed, so I don't think the Almighty wanted Dalinar to trust Sadeas.
Yeah, I understand that -but the main thing that might have been important there is that he acted honorably to Sadeas - I think trusting him was just a misunderstanding of the message on his part.


Quote from: Rhuan on September 09, 2010, 01:30:14 AM
I took it as definately an effectively recorded message after the last vision.
Well, it was a vision sent by a deity - it was flexible - he could interact with people in it and change things that happened in the vision (though I highly doubt anything is actually being changed in the past), and the deity in question, while tending to repeat himself, DID respond to prompts, but simply said 'I can't tell you any more' in most cases - perhaps because it was still ultimately a message and a message can't give more information than it has been given.

Quote
Also, 'fraid I disagree with it being all about attracting an honourspren, the conversation with Nohadon in one of the visions implies that there are other sorts of spren which can give ppowers other than honourspren. "not all spren are as discerning as honourspren".

As for the most important words a man can say? Maybe "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves." or perhaps "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination."

Yeah, those words are the oaths of the Radiants, which when spoken to an Honorspren gave Kaladin his full abilities. The fact that Syl was constantly going "say the Words! quickly! say the Words!" implied that saying those words had some extra meaning which further empowered Kaladin's bond with Syl.

And even though there are other spren capable of giving power, it might still mean that Dalinar is one who could gain an Honorspren - it does fit his personality perfectly. Even though Kaladin got one first, Kaladin and Dalinar are together now so they might both, together, end up recreating the 'honorspren' branch of the Knights Radiant

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Brandon Sanderson / Dalinar's visions *SPOILERS*
« on: September 09, 2010, 12:30:53 AM »
I've got something of an interesting (that may be obvious or stupid to other people) theory - Perhaps the reason the Almighty's vision were obsessing so much about 'acting with honor', even when asked about Sadeas (I was under the impression although even it was a message, it could still hear what he said and respond within a limited fashion, he IS a 'god')

Perhaps he needed to act honorably even if it would otherwise be inconvenient, because, presumably, acting honorably is the only way you can become attached to an Honorspren - which appears to be the foundation for the Knight Radiant's magic.  Essentially, he needs to act honorably so he can revive the Knights Radiant to help fight back the Desolation, as they have no hope in hell of surviving one as is.

You could even go further from there and say that the 'most important words a man can say' are "the words" which fully empowered Kaladin - the oath of the Knights Radiant. (Though this could mean a lot of other things, too.)

It could be either stupid or obvious, but what do people think?

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