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Messages - maxonennis

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151
Reading Excuses / Re: Brain Storming
« on: February 11, 2009, 09:08:45 PM »
Something just hit me, if the defining difference between the sentient races and the none sentient was sex, then sex would be considered evil to an extent. So, religiously they would hold in revere inanimate objects (the specific type) because they are the starting point of all sentient life, and despise sex because it is the difference between them and the rest of the organic world.

152
Reading Excuses / Re: Brain Storming
« on: February 11, 2009, 08:45:23 PM »
Thanks!

Yes, all of the sentient races can feel emotions the same as humans (maybe not quite as strong due to the lack of certain organs that produce hormones, but close enough). Which reminds me, does anyone know enough about biology to tell me what kind of pseudo-biology would, in theory, be required for the species to produce roughly same amount hormones as humans, if the species were without genitalia?

Also, I wanted to explore the "intimate" relationships of said races rather than the idea of reliving, recycling life. So anyone who wants to chime in with any insight or theories there, please do!

153
Reading Excuses / Re: Brain Storming
« on: February 11, 2009, 08:06:26 PM »
Do they retain memories from life to life?

I didn't explain it right. It's like the law of conservation of energy. No energy is lost, but transferred. It's the same theory here. No one is coming back to life again and again, but rather when they die, someone else comes to life.

154
Reading Excuses / Brain Storming
« on: February 11, 2009, 07:23:41 PM »
I need to bounce ideas off of someone.

I’m world building *shudder* for a new book. I like the idea of “the rule of conservation of life” as the foundation for the magic. What would happen is, when a person of a certain race dies, their life—not soul, essence, personality, or anything like that, just their life—is transferred into an inanimate object. (It is a certain type of inanimate object, and the object itself becomes one of the beings, not like a Gollum or something.) I’ve been trying to brain storm some ideas of conflict, and without telling you the rest of the rules, I would like to know if any come to mind.

The number one conflict I can see is, because all of the sentient life is “recycled”, then there wouldn’t be sexes (bodily waste would be disposed of by other means that I’ve already planned out, and they can't procreate by sex—don't have the equipment). So that would mean that a couple wouldn’t be able to live in a sexual relationship—unlike the rest of nature around them which uses sex to procreate. I thought it would be interesting to play with a story about two of these beings in love and see what would happen. (Note: there are multiple species, and none of them are human.)

If you’ve got any ideas, let me know.

155
The entire first page is reflective and a whole lot of “showing” and not much telling. It didn’t bother me, but it’s not “literarily sound”. It happens again when the he is thinking about the bard.

I keep wondering if, with all the references to meditation, if this is supposed to be an eastern influenced world building. That’s exciting to me, considering the number of medieval Europe style fantasy novels. (I like ideas that at least feel original.)

After their little talk about the comet, it wasn’t necessary to give the paragraph of detail afterwards. You could’ve let the dialog stand on it’s own to poke readers interest (I wanted to skip over the following explanatory paragraph.)

All the around walking on the ship makes me seasick…

Quote
The Admiral's cabin was a marvel to behold. It was actually the second largest on the ship, just slightly smaller than Aric's. Normally somebody such as the Admiral would receive the largest, finest quarters, but Laudney took the second cabin gracefully enough when he learned that the King's personal Ambassador would be on his ship. This shift had pushed Derrick down a set of quarters, which meant that in turn, Aric suspected, things trickled their way down so that someone, somewhere, was jammed into an uncomfortable corner where normally nobody would sleep. Such was the way of the world.
The last sentence was unnecessary to convey the point.

I don’t know if the “we are coming in war” reveal was supposed to be a surprise, but I saw it coming in the first chapter.

Quote
Laudney's words may border on heresy, if not treason.
Wouldn’t heresy and treason be the same thing in their society?

Spoiler warning! My theory is that the King/God is from the seven islands and there are “celestial” beings that live there, and he’s one of them. He’s sending them to reclaim is homelands, which he was probably thrown out of.

156
Books / Re: Best book you've ever read...
« on: February 10, 2009, 05:05:33 PM »
Quote
farm boy becomes king, magic sword, evil overlord etc.

These are archtypes. Archtypes can be cliches in stories if they are used improperly but they still derive from archtypes.

The Peasant King, the Magic Sword, etc. These are not bad at all. Not cliche. They form the basis for a great deal of collective mythology.

They only become cliche if the person using them does not do so in a new/original way, or just copies them straight from the mythical archtypes without any twist.

The Peasant King can be seen in the American dream. Rags to riches. This is a powerful motif. It has meaning in the social subconscious.

The cliches are the ones where you can obviously draw a one to one comparison. 'X is definitely King Arthur just ported directly into this story.' However if the Peasant King also has self immolation (ie. Messianic properties) along with a host of other new/differentcharacteristics, then it doesn't resemble the exact archtype anymore. You can see influences of the archtype, but it has escaped being cliche because it encompasses MORE than just the 'Peasant King'.

Jordan used a lot of archtypes, but never one per person. He created real characters who filled several roles, had complex personalities and motivations and whose story was more than just Good vs. Bad.



Definition of Archetype:

“A universally recognizable element . . . that recurs across all literature and life (Latrobe 13).  Psychologist Carl Jung called these elements a kind of “collective unconscious” of the human race, prototypes rather than something gained from experience.  The word is derived from the Greek: arche, original, and typos, form or model; thus, original model (Latrobe 13). 

An archetype is the first real example or prototype of something (as the Model T is the prototype of the modern automobile).  In this sense an archetype can be considered the ideal model, the supreme type or the perfect image of something (Brunel 111-112, 114).

A key to understanding folk literature is to understand archetypes.  “An archetype is to the psyche what an instinct is to the body. . . . . Archetypes are the psychic instincts of the human species.” (Edinger as quoted in Knapp 10).  Archetypes are universal in human beings. Archetypes result in a deep emotional response for readers.

 “Archetypes are repeated patterns that recur in the literature of every age” (Sloan 48).

Examples of Archetypes

Characters:

Hero (think of the classic hero journey & qualities of hero)
·   “The main character leaves his or her community to go on an adventure, performing deeds that bring honor to the community” (Herz and Gallo 121).

Mother figure
·   Fairy Godmother (surrogate mother)—comforts and directs child, especially when he or she is confused and needs guidance.  Represents powers that can be called on for help when it is needed.  Helps young person to solve own problems (Knapp 71).
·   Earth Mother
·   Stepmother

The great teacher/mentor
·   Wise old men/women—protects or helps main character when he or she faces challenges.

The innocent
·   Child/Youth
·   Inexperienced adult
Underdog

Double
·   Split personality—the other side of an individual

Helping animals

The Sacrificial Redeemer
·   “The protagonist is willing to die for his or her beliefs; the main character maintains a strong sense of morality” (Herz and Gallo 123).

Scapegoat/Sacrificial Victim

Enchantress/Temptress

The Giant/Monster/Ogre

Villain
·   Wolf

Trickster

Evil figure
·   The Devil
·   Serpent

Settings

Garden
·   Cultivated and carefully planned.  Restricted to certain vegetation.

Forest
·   Habitat of the Great Mother (Mother Nature), the lunar force.  Fertility.  The vegetation and animals flourish in this “green world” because of the sustaining power of the Great Mother.  Symbolically the primitive levels of the feminine psyche, protective and sheltering.  Those who enter often lose their direction or rational outlook and thus tap into their collective unconscious.  This unregulated space is opposite of the cultivated gardens, which are carefully planned and are restricted to certain vegetation.

Tree
·   Represents life and knowledge

Caves and tunnels
·   Deep down where character delves into self
·   Place that character goes when “invisible” or inactive
·   At the extreme may signify death

Mountains and peaks
·   Highest peak is place to “see” far
·   Place to gain great insight
   
The River
·   Crossing river may symbolize new territory
·   Rivers can be boundaries or borders & on the other side is something new or different
·   May represent human life or time passing as we follow the river from its source to its mouth

The Sea
·   Vast, alien, dangerous, chaos
·   Waves may symbolize measures of time and represent eternity or infinity

Fountain
·   Stands for purification; the sprinkling of water (baptism) washes away sin.  Water of fountain gives new life (Knapp 32).

Islands
·   Microcosms or small worlds unto themselves
·   Represent isolation or get-a-ways

Actions/Events:

Journey--“The protagonist takes a journey, usually physical but sometimes emotional, during which he or she learns something about himself or herself or finds meaning in his or her life as well as acceptance in a community” (Herz and Gallo 112).
·   Linear
·   Circular
·   Quests
·   Quest for material wealth
·   Quest for security, as a secure place to live
·   Quest for kin
·   Quest for global good, such as when a kingdom is threatened
·   Quest for self, for self-identity or self-assurance

Rites of initiation

Parental Conflict and Relationships
·   “The protagonist deals with parental conflict by rejecting or bonding with parents” (Herz and Gallo 117).

Coming of age

Sleep
·   Crucial for physical and/or psychological healing.  During dreams, person can grow.  Person can fantasize freely in sleep.  A transitional and beneficial period.  In dream sphere can descend to the sphere of the Great Mother.  Person awakens with a greater understanding of human nature (Knapp 88).

Sacrificial rites

The Test or Trial
·   “In the transition from one stage of life to another, the main character experiences a rite of passage through growth and change; he or she experiences a transformation” (Herz and Gallo 115).

Birth/Death and Rebirth
·   “Through pain and suffering the character overcomes feelings of despair, and through a process of self-realization is reborn” (Herz and Gallo 110).

The Fall: Expulsion from Eden
·   “The main character is expelled because of an unacceptable action on his or her part” (Herz and Gallo 111).

Annihilation/Absurdity/Total Oblivion
·   “In order to exist in an intolerable world, the main character accepts that life is absurd, ridiculous, and ironic” (Herz and Gallo 116).

Works Cited

Brunel, Pierre.  Companion to Literary Myths, Heroes and Archetypes.  New York: Routledge, 1992.

Franz, Marie-Louise von.  Archetypal Patterns in Fairy Tales.  Toronto: Inner City, 1997.

Herz, Sarah K., and Donald R. Gallo. From Hinton to Hamlet: Building Bridges Between Young Adult Literature and the Classics. 2nd ed. Westport, CT: Greenwood, 2005.

Holman, C. Hugh, and William Harmon.  A Handbook to Literature.  6th ed.  New York: Macmillan, 1992.

Johnson, Terry D., and Daphne R. Louis.  Bringing It All Together.  Portsmouth, NH: Heinemann, 1990.

Knapp, Bettina L.  French Fairy Tales: A Jungian Approach. Albany: State U. of New York: 2003.

Latrobe, Kathy H., Carolyn S. Brodie, and Maureen White.  The Children’s Literature Dictionary.  New York: Neal-Schuman, 2002.

Sloan, Glenna Davis.  The Child as Critic.  3rd ed.  New York: Teachers College, 1991.

157
Reading Excuses / Re: Has everyone recieved my submission?
« on: February 09, 2009, 10:47:29 PM »
Yep, got it.

158
Howard Tayler / Re: What's So Great About Schlock Mercenary?
« on: February 09, 2009, 07:56:46 PM »
Its like if Battlestar Galactica and mystery science theater 3000 had a baby and then that baby hooked up with a pile of green goo.

I'm sold.

159
Books / Re: Best book you've ever read...
« on: February 08, 2009, 12:25:02 AM »
Quote
If something is overused, you must figure there is a reason it is used so  much.

 ::)

Your confusing a archetype and a clique. The farm boy turned king, clique. The magic sword, clique. The evil overlord, clique.

160
Books / Re: Best book you've ever read...
« on: February 07, 2009, 06:51:54 PM »
Quote
farm boy becomes king, magic sword, evil overlord etc.
If I had only read these words, and not read anything else in the post, nor have any idea what you are talking about, I would have guessed you were talking about the fantasy/science-fiction genre.

Exactly, overused.

161
Books / Re: Best book you've ever read...
« on: February 07, 2009, 04:24:47 AM »
I note the lack of Robert Jordan titles with interest.  8) (just kidding)

I would rate tEotW at somewhere between 6 to 10, the only reason I wouldn't rate it higher is because of all the copycat novels. They've tarnished tWoT greatly for me--I still love it, but I go out of my way to avoid reading epic fantasy that follows the usual hero's journey (farm boy becomes king, magic sword, evil overlord etc.).

162
Brandon Sanderson / Re: Constructive Criticism
« on: February 06, 2009, 06:57:46 PM »
Quote
- Protagonist is ripped from their known world into a whole different world they knew nothing of, and have to adjust to that. Character development and discovery of previously unknown powers.

Welcome to epic fantasy  :)

163
Books / Re: Best book you've ever read...
« on: February 06, 2009, 05:46:41 AM »
My top five:

1.   The Old Man and the Sea

2.   To the God Unknown

3.   Moby Dick

4.   For Whom the Bells Toll

5.   The Shadow of the Torturer

These are the authors (ErnestHemingway, John Steinbeck, Herman Melville, and Gene Wolfe) that I aspire to be like, and have modled my writing style after.

164
Books / Re: Fan Fiction: Good or Evil
« on: February 05, 2009, 08:30:05 AM »
I know, old thread, but I just wanted to put my two cents in on the original question.

I usually don't have a problem with fanfic. What I hate about it is when someone comes along and takes a pre-created story and characters and starts to bring back to life dead characters, changing the themes, and heavily altering the personalities. That's what makes fanfic, good fanfic, hard. In a given story a character is supposed to go through character development. It's almost impossible to do this without changing the pre-created characters to the point of being unrecognizable to the original. (The biggest reason I’m chiming in on this is because my favorite book series of all time had a very unpopular ending and kids—yes, it is a children’s book, but not Harry Potter—everywhere started making fanfic with the only casualty in the entire series coming back to life--Note: the story's theme was "war and how it changes people". Stupid kids.)

I also don’t think this helps writers in the long run. Learning how to create life-like and likable characters is probably the biggest part of writing, IMO, and fanfic isn’t doing that when you're just recycling old characters. I write speculative fiction, and in it you have to learn to world build, that is another thing that you can’t go wholesale on with a fanfic.

Yes, it is fun (I’m assuming, I’ve never written any), and it may be good practices with learning how to plot and use dialog, but it’s not going to improve one’s writing like original fiction can.

165
Reading Excuses / Re: Swear words, what to use.
« on: February 04, 2009, 08:56:13 PM »
You’re confusing lazy with practical. I don’t write six to ten book series focusing on the wide world and the diversity of people. I write standalones focusing on individual characters and trying to make them stand out with “close up shots”. Writing fake cuss words is a waste of time, because 1: my books only range about 90,000 words long (there isn’t a hole lot of time for excess crap). 2: my novels are character driven, not world oriented. 3: I want to, in that small amount of time, make my characters as relatable as possible—using real cuss words does this.

I also see how you think George RR Martian, Gene Wolfe, and Joe Abercrombie are all lazy writers.  ::)

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