Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Tortellini on January 24, 2011, 01:55:31 PM
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This is heavily based on an older thread about the decryption of Navani's sketches, found here: http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=7882.0
Great thread, by the way. In any case, that thread gives a lot of information about fabrials, including that they are powered by stormlight, and that they contain trapped spren. That lead to the question if maybe shardplate is a form of fabrial - including a trapped spren. It does regrow, so it definitely is special.
But shardplate is still ordinary compared to shardblades, which can appear and disappear into mist. Also, Syl does not like shardblades at all. But if fabrials contain trapped spren, what could be worse than that? Some people discussed shardplates also containing a trapped spren, but maybe that's still not far enough?
What if a shardblade is a type of spren?
Their appearing and disappearing, their different effect on living and dead matter show that they are very unique. There are some inanimate spren I think (one type was described as being like snow flakes). The Radiants had shardblades, but maybe they got these spren with the acceptance of the spren (like Kaladin acquired Syl). What if the remaining shardblades are sort of enslaved (or "lobotomized" in some way)?That could be why just anyone can use them. That would then definitely be revolting to Syl. And since there are so many different types of spren, it could well be that the blades are among them. That would also explain why the spren-powered fabrial of the half-shards can stop them...
Plate may be similar, but the shardplates of old exhibit different properties - the helmets of the Knights Radiant from the visions appear and reappear like they are being summoned and released just like shardblades. Modern shardplate does not do that - maybe the spren is dead, which would make it less revolting. The plate still regrows though, so there is something there... Syl never said that shardplate is ok, though - maybe Dalinar was just half as bad as before when he gave up the blade, which from her point of view would still be better than both plate and blade. Since the only "feels" this, she doesn't really know what's going on, either.
Anyone have some input on this theory?
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I always assumed there was some relationship between Odium and the Shardblades & Shardplates (possibly). I don't like the way people die if they are killed by a Shardblade - the burning in their eyes makes me think about Voidbringers, and Voidbringers make me think of Odium. I am not sure how this fits into that vision of Dalinar where he saw the Knights Radiant abandon their weapons and armor.
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Hm, but the Radiants fight against the forces of odium. Also shardblades seem somewhat related to the heralds' honorblades, and the heralds are definitely not on odium's side. At least, they weren't when they still used those blades... ::)
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Your theory is really interesting, and the name of the Herald's blades (Honorblades) almost seems to reinforce it. Honorspren and Honorblades might be related in someway, maybe when the Heralds ditched their blades, they returned to their spren state. If so, they would definitely be "special", and Syl definitely strikes me as a special spren. Its quite possible that if you choose to release your shardblade, instead of having it taken from you, then the spren is released back into the world. Can't wait to see what others might think about this, I miss a lot of the interviews Brandon has, so its quite possible some of these questions have already been asked.
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I want to point out a few things before getting into theory.
Page 298 (Chapter 19) uses the Term "Honorblade" in reference to something of legend. it is used by Dalinar so he isn't talking of Shardblades. I think it clear that the weapons of the Heralds are Honorblades (as it seems do others in this thread).
Page 997 (Chapter 75) uses the Term "Dawnshards" in reference to something that humanity does not currently have.
The Parshendi (whom Jasnah believes to be the Voidbringers) have a number of Shardblades and Shardplate that is indistinguishable from any of the other shardblades and shardplate that anyone in the 10 warcamps has ever seen.
Syl is repulsed by the Shardblade that Dalinar has had since he was a teenager, but we know that the Knights Radiant used Shardblades and were bound to Spren (who presumably were not repulsed).
We know that there are only a few dozen (100 or less) shard blades in the world now, yet we saw 300 Knights Radiant give up their blades in one event, and that there were several other groups of Knights Radiant of similar size (all told 2-4 thousand Shardblades should have existed).
When you put this all together I think it is clear that there are two types of Shardblades in addition to the Honorblades of the Heralds.
Type 1 would be the Dawnblades that the Knights Radiant used, and that The Almighty comments about humanity NOT having.
Type 2 I choose to call Voidblades, these are used by the Parshendi, and by Humans who have captured them from Parshendi.
Voidblades are evil, vile things that burn out the soul, and are created by Odium. Spren see them for the evil weapons they are. Dawnshards are different, they are created by The Almighty (Honor) and while they can cut non-living things exactly like Voidblades, and can 'kill' in a single strike like the Voidblades, I believe they don't burn out the eyes of their victims killing the soul, but instead release the soul to the afterlife and have a noticeably different effect on the eyes.
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Syl is repulsed by the Shardblade that Dalinar has had since he was a teenager, but we know that the Knights Radiant used Shardblades and were bound to Spren (who presumably were not repulsed).
Actually I take this back, we know that Syl is repulsed byt he Shardblade that Dalinar had, but we don't KNOW that the Knights Radiant were bound to Spren.
unless there was an Interview I haven't seen about Spren bonding then I have to believe that Spren are NOT required for Surgebinding, as Windspren are NOT wind, Deathspren are NOT death, Rotspren are NOT rot. Windspren are attracted to wind, deathspren are attracted to death and rotspren are attracted to rot.
Honorspren thus are attracted to Honor, and Surgebinding may be of Honor (the Shard, as in The Almighty), but I see no reason for it to REQUIRE a Spren (much less a willing one), thus it can not be assumed that the Knights Radiant had a Spren bound to them.
I still find it LIKELY they did, but not REQUIRED.
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Thats an interesting point also, that there may be two different types of shardblades, in addition to the difference between Honorblades and Shardblades. This would definitely explain Syl's repulsion, and would also show more of Odium touching the world. I want to believe that Dalinar is not using a "Voidblade" as you called it, just because I feel he should be untouched by Odium, even if he is doing it without knowing.
Do you think that the "Dawnblades" were just corrupted by Odium at some point, and thus created the "Voidblades"? I don't have my book on me, but during one of Dalinar's visions.. he sees hundreds of the Knights Radiant giving up their Shardplate and Shardblades (or Dawnblades perhaps). I remember that the people who pick the blades and armor up then start fighting over them, but I don't remember if there is a description to how the people died. We might be able to determine if that event changed the blades (Odium's touch?), or if the blades are separate from each other in some way. I hope this makes sense, I'm thinking through this as I go.
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Thats an interesting point also, that there may be two different types of shardblades, in addition to the difference between Honorblades and Shardblades. This would definitely explain Syl's repulsion, and would also show more of Odium touching the world. I want to believe that Dalinar is not using a "Voidblade" as you called it, just because I feel he should be untouched by Odium, even if he is doing it without knowing.
Do you think that the "Dawnblades" were just corrupted by Odium at some point, and thus created the "Voidblades"? I don't have my book on me, but during one of Dalinar's visions.. he sees hundreds of the Knights Radiant giving up their Shardplate and Shardblades (or Dawnblades perhaps). I remember that the people who pick the blades and armor up then start fighting over them, but I don't remember if there is a description to how the people died. We might be able to determine if that event changed the blades (Odium's touch?), or if the blades are separate from each other in some way. I hope this makes sense, I'm thinking through this as I go.
Well one of the reasons I think the modern Shardblades and those used by the Knights Radiant are different is the number of them. As you mentioned we saw 300 knights give up their weapons, and we have less then 100 Shardblades in Modern Roshar. So I lean against 'corrupted' blades, though it is possible.
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Yeah, I kind of think they are different too. I'm just trying to decide where the "Dawnblades" could have gone, if Shardblades are not physically the same thing. Throughout Roshar's history, it seems that power is almost defined by how many Blades (of whatever type) that you control, so it seems kind of weird for so many to just go missing. The only other reason for their disappearance that I can think of (other than that the original "Dawnblades" were corrupted and are now the "Shardblades") is that someone amassed so many, that they could hide them or dispose of them in some way to keep their power.
**Mistborn Spoiler**
Its almost like the Atium in the Mistborn series. It wasn't that there was physically a huge shortage of Atium, it was more that the Lord Ruler had so much of it, that he could act as though there was only a small amount, to control the market. Something similar could have happened on Roshar, but then the "stockpile" of weapons, or where they were hidden, was lost with time.
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Thats an interesting point also, that there may be two different types of shardblades, in addition to the difference between Honorblades and Shardblades. This would definitely explain Syl's repulsion, and would also show more of Odium touching the world. I want to believe that Dalinar is not using a "Voidblade" as you called it, just because I feel he should be untouched by Odium, even if he is doing it without knowing.
Do you think that the "Dawnblades" were just corrupted by Odium at some point, and thus created the "Voidblades"? I don't have my book on me, but during one of Dalinar's visions.. he sees hundreds of the Knights Radiant giving up their Shardplate and Shardblades (or Dawnblades perhaps). I remember that the people who pick the blades and armor up then start fighting over them, but I don't remember if there is a description to how the people died. We might be able to determine if that event changed the blades (Odium's touch?), or if the blades are separate from each other in some way. I hope this makes sense, I'm thinking through this as I go.
Page 733, US hardcover version:
"Dalinar looked back at the melee of soldiers rushing for Blades. Many had already been claimed. There weren't enough Blades for everyone, and some had already begun raising theirs up, using them to fend off those who got too close. As he watched, a bellowing officer with a Blade was attacked by two men behind him.
The glow from within the weapons had completely vanished.
The killing of that officer made others bold. Other skirmishes started, men scrambling to attack those who had Blades, hoping to get one. Eyes began to burn. Screams, shouts, death."
So the abandoned Radiants' blades did kill the same way that modern Shardblades do. Maybe being turned against human beings for the first time corrupted them somehow? I don't know. It's an intriguing question.
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Thats an interesting point also, that there may be two different types of shardblades, in addition to the difference between Honorblades and Shardblades. This would definitely explain Syl's repulsion, and would also show more of Odium touching the world. I want to believe that Dalinar is not using a "Voidblade" as you called it, just because I feel he should be untouched by Odium, even if he is doing it without knowing.
Do you think that the "Dawnblades" were just corrupted by Odium at some point, and thus created the "Voidblades"? I don't have my book on me, but during one of Dalinar's visions.. he sees hundreds of the Knights Radiant giving up their Shardplate and Shardblades (or Dawnblades perhaps). I remember that the people who pick the blades and armor up then start fighting over them, but I don't remember if there is a description to how the people died. We might be able to determine if that event changed the blades (Odium's touch?), or if the blades are separate from each other in some way. I hope this makes sense, I'm thinking through this as I go.
Page 733, US hardcover version:
"Dalinar looked back at the melee of soldiers rushing for Blades. Many had already been claimed. There weren't enough Blades for everyone, and some had already begun raising theirs up, using them to fend off those who got too close. As he watched, a bellowing officer with a Blade was attacked by two men behind him.
The glow from within the weapons had completely vanished.
The killing of that officer made others bold. Other skirmishes started, men scrambling to attack those who had Blades, hoping to get one. Eyes began to burn. Screams, shouts, death."
So the abandoned Radiants' blades did kill the same way that modern Shardblades do. Maybe being turned against human beings for the first time corrupted them somehow? I don't know. It's an intriguing question.
that's my theory, that the Shardblades were corrupted by being used selfishly, and that's why Syl hates them. And maybe even why Kaladin couldn't bring himself to touch one, and why Dalinar suffers bouts of illness in battle. I'll be interested to see if Dalinar still has that problem after giving up the Blade.....
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Thats an interesting point also, that there may be two different types of shardblades, in addition to the difference between Honorblades and Shardblades. This would definitely explain Syl's repulsion, and would also show more of Odium touching the world. I want to believe that Dalinar is not using a "Voidblade" as you called it, just because I feel he should be untouched by Odium, even if he is doing it without knowing.
Do you think that the "Dawnblades" were just corrupted by Odium at some point, and thus created the "Voidblades"? I don't have my book on me, but during one of Dalinar's visions.. he sees hundreds of the Knights Radiant giving up their Shardplate and Shardblades (or Dawnblades perhaps). I remember that the people who pick the blades and armor up then start fighting over them, but I don't remember if there is a description to how the people died. We might be able to determine if that event changed the blades (Odium's touch?), or if the blades are separate from each other in some way. I hope this makes sense, I'm thinking through this as I go.
Page 733, US hardcover version:
"Dalinar looked back at the melee of soldiers rushing for Blades. Many had already been claimed. There weren't enough Blades for everyone, and some had already begun raising theirs up, using them to fend off those who got too close. As he watched, a bellowing officer with a Blade was attacked by two men behind him.
The glow from within the weapons had completely vanished.
The killing of that officer made others bold. Other skirmishes started, men scrambling to attack those who had Blades, hoping to get one. Eyes began to burn. Screams, shouts, death."
So the abandoned Radiants' blades did kill the same way that modern Shardblades do. Maybe being turned against human beings for the first time corrupted them somehow? I don't know. It's an intriguing question.
that's my theory, that the Shardblades were corrupted by being used selfishly, and that's why Syl hates them. And maybe even why Kaladin couldn't bring himself to touch one, and why Dalinar suffers bouts of illness in battle. I'll be interested to see if Dalinar still has that problem after giving up the Blade.....
I imagine he will. I took the waves of nausea to be part of his character rather than anything supernatural; just the horror of slaughtering people by the hundreds finally getting through to him as he reexamines his life.
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Could Szeth's shardblade actually be a Dawnshard? It's obvious that it's not a normal Blade. And if it is a Dawnshard, could it somehow be the source of his Surgebinding abilities, instead of a normal Nahel bond?
When I was reading the book I was a bit confused and thought Dawnshards and Honorblades might be two different names for the same thing, but I know better now. (Person in front of me at the book signing had a question relating to them.)
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What makes you think Szeth's Blade isn't normal?
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It's the only shardblade we've seen so far that's normal sword length instead of 6 feet or so long. And it changes his eye color while he wields it, which isn't something we see from the other shardblades. Szeth even notes that it's a special characteristic of his blade. But is notable that when Kaladin killed the Shardbearer and was looking at the blade, he had heard stories of eyes changing color when people claimed Blades.
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Szeth's Blade is also sharp on both sides, where all the others we've seen were sharp on one side.
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I was led to believe that each Blade is a work of art and is individual in its design. Dalinar and Adolin - and Elhokar too - are all Alethi royals, which by definition makes them warriors as well. And warriors want big Shardblades, because when balance and weight are not issues, length/range become the most important characteristic of the weapon. Szeth, on the other hand, is an assassin - a massive Blade is less efficient than his small one.
Which makes me wonder whether the nature of the user can change his or her Blade to an extent. I don't think the Blade changes as soon as you pick it up, but maybe over time...
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Which makes me wonder whether the nature of the user can change his or her Blade to an extent. I don't think the Blade changes as soon as you pick it up, but maybe over time...
I think if this is the case, we will see the effects of this through the next book on Sadeas's Blade. We will have to watch and make special not of any description that is given for the Blade and compare it to ones of Dalinar's.
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I was led to believe that each Blade is a work of art and is individual in its design. Dalinar and Adolin - and Elhokar too - are all Alethi royals, which by definition makes them warriors as well. And warriors want big Shardblades, because when balance and weight are not issues, length/range become the most important characteristic of the weapon. Szeth, on the other hand, is an assassin - a massive Blade is less efficient than his small one.
Which makes me wonder whether the nature of the user can change his or her Blade to an extent. I don't think the Blade changes as soon as you pick it up, but maybe over time...
There could be a simpler explanation, at least for some of them. If you're going to duel someone for their shardblade, or take on a shardbearer in battle in a considered attempt to win his shards, it makes sense that you'd go for a weapon you understood or liked the look of, at least subconsciously. Some ancestor of the Kholins may have seen some big beast of a shardblade and decided it would make a fine weapon to be passed down the royal line.
As for the differences with Szeth's blade, I agree that each blade would be unique, but I really don't think it's that far-fetched to think that different orders of Radiants would have had different styles of blades tailored to their abilities. Giving a Windrunner a (relatively) small, thin, agile blade with a versatile double edge would compliment his speed and lashing ability, rather than making him deal with swinging a six-foot-long monstrosity around while trying to float weightlessly along a hallway. Shardplate may boost your strength but I'd bet it's not going to let you ignore the weight of your blade when you're performing a Lashing.
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Shardblades don't actually weigh very much apparently, at least not nearly as much as they should given their size.
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When reading the books, I didn't ever get the feeling that shardblades are split into subgroups... All unique, but seemingly alike otherwise. For now, we just don't know enough to tell either way I think.
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When I was reading the book I was a bit confused and thought Dawnshards and Honorblades might be two different names for the same thing, but I know better now. (Person in front of me at the book signing had a question relating to them.)
What was the question and answer?
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From one of the Chapter Epigraphs of Part 3 (specifically chapter 36) I found the following quote (this is an exert from Jasnah's Journal)
"Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above."
--From The Poem of Ista. I have found no modern explanation of what these "Dawnshards" are. They seem ignored by scholars, though talk of them was obviously prevalent among those recording the early mythologies.
That seems to again indicate that there are 2 kinds of Shardblades, Dawnshards and the current variety.
Also note that they are "known to bind any creature voidish or mortal" not known to kill...
Though this is hard to reconcile with the Vision Dalinar had of the Knights Radiant giving up their swords, it is possible that he saw what he expected, either because he expected it and wasn't paying attention, or because the vision pulled from his own mind to fill in some details, it is also possible that the Dawnshards were corrupted by the very act of the Knights Radiant giving them up. Or Dawnshards could be something else entirely.
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I remember reading this epigraph and thinking that maybe the Shardblades have a Voidbringer bound/imprisoned inside them. I know I am clinging to my Blade-Voidbringer theory a little too much, but the burning of the victims' eyes makes me think of those hellish creatures.
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What makes you think a dawnshard is a blade? Shardplate also has shard in the name. Shard seems a material/origin description....
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What makes you think a dawnshard is a blade? Shardplate also has shard in the name. Shard seems a material/origin description....
Page 997 when the Almighty is talking about how to defeat Odium he suggests getting Odium to pick a champion then says "A champion could work well for you, bit it is not certain. And... without the Dawnshards... Well, I have done what I can."
That sounds to me like a Dawnshard is a way to defeat the champion.
Add the Epigraph to that, which also looks like a Dawnshard is a way to defeat (bind) creatures.
So the Dawnshard is offensive in nature, but it could be a sword (hammer or other weapon) or it could be more like a Soulcaster (a source of combat magic).
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What makes you think a dawnshard is a blade? Shardplate also has shard in the name. Shard seems a material/origin description....
Also I am fairly sure that Shardblade was the first thing with 'shard' in it's name, then the plate came along and it was named Shardplate because it was able to protect from a blow by a shardblade, not because of any similarity in origin. Then (recently) Halfshards were created and they are absolutely named after Shardblades because they can block an attack from a Shardblade.
So no, I don't think 'shard' is a reference to a Material, Origin, or other similarity like that, I think it is the name used for the weapon, and then anything that can defend from the weapon. This also makes me think Dawnshards are swords, the Sword isn't a Fabrial, Shardplate and Halfshards are both Fabrials, which makes me think the swords come from The Almighty, while the rest are made by man which makes me assume the Dawnshards (which The Almighty talks about needing to return to Man) are also swords.
Edit: For some reason I originally typed Dawnblade instead of Dawnshards.
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When I was reading the book I was a bit confused and thought Dawnshards and Honorblades might be two different names for the same thing, but I know better now. (Person in front of me at the book signing had a question relating to them.)
What was the question and answer?
Unfortunately, I don't remember his exact question and answer. But that group ahead of me in line was pretty interesting in general. They talked about Cryptonomicon (by Neal Stephenson, not fantasy, but still fiction) a bit, and a female in the group had the first normal copy (not an advance copy) of the 5th 4th Librarian's book that Brandon had ever seen.
Actually the person asking the Honorblade/Dawnshard/Shardblade question had the names for the swords a bit mixed up, part of the reason I interjected with a correction and a follow up question, which I think was a bit rude on my part. I believe my follow up question/statement was along the lines of "Oh, I had thought that Dawnshards and Honorblades were the same thing, that makes me wonder what's up with Szeth's shardblade." Brandon's response was along the lines of a knowing "Hmmmm..." or "I wonder...", which could have just been a cryptic way of misleading me, and Szeth's shardblade might in fact be perfectly ordinary, and we just haven't been exposed to enough shardblades to make this obvious.
What makes you think a dawnshard is a blade? Shardplate also has shard in the name. Shard seems a material/origin description....
Looking at the few places in the book where Dawnshards are mentioned, there's no great reason for me to think that it's a weapon. It's just one of those ideas I latched on with my initial incorrect assumption that it was the same as a Honorblade. The reason I thought that was because the Honorblades seemed to be proof and part of the Heralds' binding to their individual cycles of reincarnation and suffering.
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I also didn't get the impression that Dawnshards were necessarily swords, or literal physical weapons,the epigraph talks about them binding things. If you wanna take that literally they could be sets of manacles. But it's probably an object that has mystical binding powers. Possibly what was used to bind the Voidbringers into slavery as the parshmen? That's my wild theory for the night.
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If the Dawnshards were not weapons, how is the "champion" supposed to challenge anyone. It would be pretty difficult to fight a duel without a weapon of some sort. Because the Almighty is the representation of honour, that would imply that there would be a duel fought as that seems honourable and that the weapon used by the Almighty's champion would be a sword as that also seems the most honourable weapon.
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If the Dawnshards were not weapons, how is the "champion" supposed to challenge anyone. It would be pretty difficult to fight a duel without a weapon of some sort. Because the Almighty is the representation of honour, that would imply that there would be a duel fought as that seems honourable and that the weapon used by the Almighty's champion would be a sword as that also seems the most honourable weapon.
Doesn't that kind of clash with a large part of what Dalinar's parts of the story say? That you don't have to resolve every contest with fighting or weapons, and that in fact many other things should come first? Frankly, this being a Brandon Sanderson series, I'd find it very anticlimactic if everything was resolved with just one boss battle when the Dawnshards could have any number of ways to help resolve the problem.
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Just because the Alethi see honour in terms of dueling, with swords doesn't mean they are right about it. The book establishes that most of the Alethi don't know crap about what honour is.
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Just because the Alethi see honour in terms of dueling, with swords doesn't mean they are right about it. The book establishes that most of the Alethi don't know crap about what honour is.
The real world saw honor in dueling, but the honor in a duel isn't relavent, what is relevant is that Honor (AKA The Almighty) suggests getting Odium to pick a champion, which sounds like a duel to me, and then comments that you won't have much chance against the champion without the Dawnshards.
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Dawnshards don't have to be weapons - they could be just a key component. For example, every Shardblade uses a Dawnshard in its core, and that's what gives it its magical properties. It's probably not like that, but I think the example holds.
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I meant that swords were honourable in that the Almighty gave the Heralds swords and if he thought they weren't honourable I don't think he would have given them.
Also the duel Kaladin is fighting would be honourable because he is doing it to save a load of people.
Also, as much of this book relies on symbolism a fight to the death is pretty damn good symbol. ;)
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Purely speculative theory, but one possible explanation for what happened to a lot of the Shardblades and the difference between Alethi blades and Szeth's is that the Alethi blades were reforged to create the extremely large Shardblades that are seen nowadays. We know that they can't create new Shardblades but Shardplate rebuilds itself when infused with enough Stormlight so who's to stay that in the days after the Radiants they didn't have a means of "growing" larger Shardblades by combining them together and infusing with Stormlight?
The larger blades that the Alethi have seem more adept at mowing down large numbers of foot soldiers, Dalinar describes fighting with a Shardblade as being very different than using a normal sword; more large arcing swings than precise. This sounds like an adaptation made over the years from the Shardblades being used to fight in Desolations to being used to fight battles against human armies. And because only other Shardblades are really a threat against someone in Shardplate this fighting style doesn't seem to lend itself to self protection.
From Dalinar's vision, Shardblades don't always just pass right through creatures, when fighting the Midnight Essences:
Moving fluidly, Plate clinking, the man struck at the beasts. He effortlessly sheared a monster in half, flinging pieces into the night that trailed black smoke.
While it may just be he killed it then the blade continued on to cut the thing in half it sounds more like the Shardblade had a physical effect on the creature that they don't have on people or normal animals. When fighting something like that you are going to need to fight with the Shardblade differently than in their large scale battles.
Since Szeth's blade comes from the Shin who are more pacifist they would of had no need for the "adaptation" so his blade is still the normal length.
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I figure the creatures were just some kind of constructs composed of the Midnight Essence stuff, so they weren't really alive and that's why the Shardblade cut them.
Also, I don't think Dalinar mentioned the Shardblades in his visions being different then the ones he was familiar with, except for the glowing, if they were smaller then most modern Shardblades I think it would have got mentioned.
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I agree with many posters here, that the Shardblades (in use during WoK) have an evil feel. I wonder if they aren't - metaphorically - a two-edged sword, that gives an advantage in battle, but leaves the bearer open to evil somehow - like maybe, the more you use it, the more arrogant and hostile you become. If a person had great stength of character within themselves, they could fend off this evil influence longer than others. I wonder if it's not a coincidence that the Alethi nobles prize Shardblades so much, and have such character problems - the influence to evil would be both cause and effect.
Hmmm - What if the Knights Radiant gave up the Shardblades because they were evil, or had somehow become a conduit for evil?
Or - What if the Shardblades were immune to evil during the Oathpact, but once that was broken, Odium began to be able to work through them somehow?
Re: the Dawnshards - I wonder if these aren't actual shards - broken pieces of something, like if a huge crystal got broken. [Confess that I'm thinking of "The Dark Crystal" ... where are the Gelflings? ;)]
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My theory is that they were corrupted by the KR abandoning their duty and the subsequent use of the Blades for selfish ends, you will note that the glow to the Blades faded away as the people started using them to slaughter each other.
Also suspect that the corruption amplifies the Thrill that the Alethi feel....
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What makes you think a dawnshard is a blade? Shardplate also has shard in the name. Shard seems a material/origin description....
Page 997 when the Almighty is talking about how to defeat Odium he suggests getting Odium to pick a champion then says "A champion could work well for you, bit it is not certain. And... without the Dawnshards... Well, I have done what I can."
That sounds to me like a Dawnshard is a way to defeat the champion.
Add the Epigraph to that, which also looks like a Dawnshard is a way to defeat (bind) creatures.
So the Dawnshard is offensive in nature, but it could be a sword (hammer or other weapon) or it could be more like a Soulcaster (a source of combat magic).
Well, I'd be inclined to think the bit about dawnshards is more generally aimed at talking about how to defeat Odium, and not necessarily just about binding his champion if he chooses one.
Also, choosing a champion really doesn't necessarily mean anything to do with a duel. The word is used in other contexts than just dueling. It probably just indicates someone chosen as an agent for Odium to bestow extraordinary powers upon.
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There is also the possibility that the Dawnshards do not cut the souls of living things,
but simply 'awaken' them into the realisation that what they are doing is wrong
(But Voidbringers die/turn into normal parshmen because they're just plain evil)
And normal people, when hit with a Dawnshard, just start fighting for the Heralds and such 'n such.
meh. I don't know...
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I agree with many posters here, that the Shardblades (in use during WoK) have an evil feel. I wonder if they aren't - metaphorically - a two-edged sword, that gives an advantage in battle, but leaves the bearer open to evil somehow - like maybe, the more you use it, the more arrogant and hostile you become. If a person had great stength of character within themselves, they could fend off this evil influence longer than others. I wonder if it's not a coincidence that the Alethi nobles prize Shardblades so much, and have such character problems - the influence to evil would be both cause and effect.
Hmmm - What if the Knights Radiant gave up the Shardblades because they were evil, or had somehow become a conduit for evil?
Or - What if the Shardblades were immune to evil during the Oathpact, but once that was broken, Odium began to be able to work through them somehow?
Re: the Dawnshards - I wonder if these aren't actual shards - broken pieces of something, like if a huge crystal got broken. [Confess that I'm thinking of "The Dark Crystal" ... where are the Gelflings? ]
My theory is that they were corrupted by the KR abandoning their duty and the subsequent use of the Blades for selfish ends, you will note that the glow to the Blades faded away as the people started using them to slaughter each other.
Also suspect that the corruption amplifies the Thrill that the Alethi feel....
I partially agree with these statements...
My feeling is that an "honorblade" is just a shardblade that is wielded by a person with honor, possibly only those who are held to a specific oath (think Kaladin's improved surgebinding abilities after saying the first ideal of the KR). The difference between an "honorblade" and most of the shardblades we see in WoKs is the presence or lack of a binding oath (which seems to manifest itself by a glow). Szeth's shardblade is different, not because of its size, but because he follows a code of honor, possibly with a certain spoken oath that refers to the KR.
As I was writing this, another thought came to me: it might be that only the KR, or rather, people with innate binding abilities (surgebinding, soulcasting sans soulcaster, other abilites that we don't know of yet) AND say (and keep) the oath can have the "honorblades" we see in the Almighty's messages; might be one of the reasons that the KR in the highstorm vision says that Dalinar "might not be able to join the Knights themselves but he could still fight as a member of the army." (Hurrah for paraphrasing!) The required oath is there because there are a few characters with shardblades that are binders of some sort but whose weapons do not show the characteristics of "honorblades," namely Shallan (though we never see her blade) and Elhokar.
For me, anything that is prefaced with "Dawn" refers to the Heralds, i.e. Dawncities, Dawnchant, Dawnshards, etc. I'll need to reread through WoK to get the specific page numbers but my thought pattern went thus (and it may be a little flimsy, logically):
Kaladin says that his father liked the Heralds because they brought healing to the people. In a reference by either Shallan, Jasnah or Kasbal (I think it is one of them...maybe it was Hoid's apprentice...) they speak of the creators of the Dawncities as being the bringers of healing (along with some other things, I think poetry and art are also included). While this is the only example I can think of at the moment, I am pretty sure there are a few others that I cannot remember.
IMO the Heralds is just a shortened term for Heralds of the Dawn, or the rise of mankind from the darkness. (Seems to fit to me...though it might be the hidden dramatic in me trying to break free, which I have throughly tried to beat out of myself. :P )
For the record, I think that the Dawnshards are the Heralds blades.
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Brandon has referred to the Heralds' Blades as Honorblades in a goodreads QA.
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IMO the Heralds is just a shortened term for Heralds of the Dawn, or the rise of mankind from the darkness. (Seems to fit to me...though it might be the hidden dramatic in me trying to break free, which I have throughly tried to beat out of myself. :P )
Epilogue, pp1001 (hardcover)
"...I am Talenen'Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of the Almighty."
Doesn't fit with your theory, but doesn't directly contradict it either.
I always thought that "Honor" was to do with the Heralds, and "Dawn" came before them (even before the Cycle of Desolations), but then again, I have no evidence.
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Ok, new idea about the dawnshards - this is based on the overarching theory of Adonalsium etc. So, extra-spoilers.
I agree with the intepretation of "Dawn" as a metaphor for the beginning - in a "Dawn of Mankind" sort of way. Before everything. But my other idea is so obvious, someone must have had it before - so bear with me if you heard this before:
In the overall cosmere setting, shards refer to parts of Adonalsium, which give the people who hold them (also often referred to by the names of the shards) vast powers. This is Odium, Honor and so on. But Shards can also splinter, which distributes the power somehow. The Returned in Warbreaker are examples of Splinters. So could the Dawnshards also be Splinters of Adonalsium? Unfortunately, that doesn't help a lot, since they could still be swords, objects, pools of water or imbued people - this quote from the book sounds like object, but can be interpreted in lots of ways:
"Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above."—From The Poem of Ista. (Jasnah's note) I have found no modern explanation of what these “Dawnshards” are. They seem ignored by scholars, though talk of them was obviously prevalent among those recording the early mythologies.
This would mean that the current Shardplates and -blades are possibly called such because they echo/imitate a far greater power the people used to see - Dawnshards. That would explain the Prefix "Shard" on everything. Next question is, whose splinters? Possibly Honor, is probably the most likely candidate.
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My impression was just that "dawn" was a term characters in the present day used to refer to really ancient things they didn't understand very well. I don't really have anything concrete to back that up, however, and I can't remember if any more reliable sources (death quotes, highstorm visions, etc.) ever used the term.
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No, look at the quote I posted - Jasnah is citing an ancient source where the word is used. She herself, in the present term, is unfamiliar with the word, enough to put it in quotes. So the term was used in the past and is in fact not being used any more.
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Oh, okay, sorry, I missed that.
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In Dalinar's last vision Honor says "....Speak again the ancient oaths and return the shards they once bore." "The Knights Radiant must rise again."
Could speaking the oaths of the radiants tailor both plate and blade to each knight? Could these be the dawnblades? When the Radiants gave up their shards in the vision, could the light leaking out, take away it's purity? Maybe this is why Syl felt revolted.
Since each order has the primary oath and then three separate oaths for their specific order, Could the first refine your stormlight ability. Like with Kaladin on the tower and the explosion of light after speaking the second oath. Then following that logic the next oath could give the knight either plate or blade.
And if this makes any sense could kaladin end up with a shard spear?
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There's been no mention of anything called a "dawnblade" You're getting Honorblades and Dawnshards mixed up...
I'm a bit partial to the idea of further oaths binding individual Shardblades and Shardplate to the Knight Radiant. You'd still need a Blade beforehand, but the oath would set its size and shape to whatever the Knight was most comfortable with. Which could mean a Shardspear, but let's be honest here, this is all rampant speculation. There's got to be some manner in which a full Knight Radiant can use Stormlight while in Plate, and this idea and a description of Glyphs on Plate are all we have to work with so far.
I think the Shardblades we see in the present day are the same thing as the Shardblades in Dalinar's vision. It's just that they've been focal points of conflict, greed, and death since that time, which is why Syl finds them disturbing. Maybe even all the souls they've cut through have an effect on the blades themselves. I'm looking forward to finding out where all the other Blades and Plate from back then have ended up/been hidden. That'll probably be one of the books major climatic Reveals.
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I have trouble imagining how a shardspear should work - wouldn't it get stuck all the time?
Shardblades are efficient because they cut trough anything - the tip of a spear could work similarly, but the shaft would get stuck all the time (blades can get stuck if twisted the wrong way if I recall correctly from the novel). Also, shard weapons are basically weapons of mass destruction because of their slicing power. Stabbing may work, but it's vastly less efficient when facing many opponents. Slicing large groups with a spear is not good, because if one guy gets a little closer, you hit him with the shaft, that doesn't slice and the spear is blocked.
Of course, you could say it's a spear with a short grip and a very long tip, but then really, it's a sword ;)
I think it will be much more interesting to see the impact of half-shards on shard combat - current shardplates are basically 2-handed swords in their use pattern, and that combat style is very disadvantaged when facing a sword-and-shield opponent. There are actually many strategies that could mess up the current type of shard combat, and I predict that we will see quite a few new approaches not just based on surgebinding powers but also on intellectual progress.