Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Stormblessed on October 08, 2010, 01:24:20 AM
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I can't help shake this feeling that Dalinar's visions transport his spirit back in time, so that he does not just experience past events, but influences them.
If it was just a recount of the past, Dalinar wouldn't be able to act like himself, but would act like the person he possessed. However he does act like himself - he fought off the smoke creatures, which surprised the wife of the person he possessed, as well as the Knights Radiants. He told Nohadon that he would write a book, which surprised Nohadon - I can't help but think that this line maybe influenced Nohadon later, making him write the Way of Kings.
Anyway, the fact is that these visions don't just feel like a recount of the past, it is as if Dalinar is in the past, experience the events as they happen.
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I very much doubt it. It simply seems that he is experiencing a simulation created by the Almighty. If he were to actually be changing things, the implications would be much larger, the changes much bigger, than what we've seen.
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I very much doubt it. It simply seems that he is experiencing a simulation created by the Almighty. If he were to actually be changing things, the implications would be much larger, the changes much bigger, than what we've seen.
I don't think so much as changing the events, but he is influencing the event. Remember Lost: what happens happened. When Jack and co went back in time, they didn't change the past, in fact they had always gone back in time, and if they had not, then they would've been changing the future. (Yes it gets really confusing :P)
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I very much doubt it. It simply seems that he is experiencing a simulation created by the Almighty. If he were to actually be changing things, the implications would be much larger, the changes much bigger, than what we've seen.
Unfortunately the Almighty is (by his own admission) dead. Some of his spiritual power may remain, possibly enabling time-travel visions, Knight Radiant powers, etc. -- but there seems to be no... cognitive processing happening. If the Almighty can't even carry on a two-sided conversation, I imagine it would be even more difficult for him to tailor a simulation that adapted to the viewer's actions.
It seems to me that the Almighty picked specific points in time when he was still alive to record snippets of a static "magical video will". The viewer gets their consciousness transported back to just before that moment, and then the message plays. It's not an exact science, so the viewer might have some wiggle room to affect the past in small ways while they're there -- but the Almighty picked moments that would be unlikely to lead to a major paradox.
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But everyone reacts to Dalinar's different. It isn't that they ignore the fact that he is different, as would happen in a recording of the past.
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But everyone reacts to Dalinar's different. It isn't that they ignore the fact that he is different, as would happen in a recording of the past.
Yeah, what I meant was that only the Almighty's commentary track was pre-recorded, but the surrounding physical setting was "real" because the viewer's consciousness was displaced in time.
Wibbley-wobbley, timey-wimey...
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Does that stop it being time-travel? It complicates things but still, something doesn't feel right.
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Does that stop it being time-travel? It complicates things but still, something doesn't feel right.
I think of it as time travel with a voiceover.
Given that we don't really know anything at all regarding the Almighty's actual capabilities -- I'd say pretty much anything goes when it comes to speculation.
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It seems more likely to me that the Almighty would be able to take a "snapshot" of the personality of the people involved in the event he is 'recording', thus instead of a static recording the visions are able to react to Dalinars actions within the scope of the personality that each character in the vision was modeled after. If the Almighty's powers are equal to even a simple computer (and I have to assume they are) then its no big deal at all to just run the simulation.
Thus the visions aren't "custom molded" to the viewer so much as dynamically generated based on the recorded personalities. In this case we could assume that if the simulation is run without the presence of the viewer to affect it, then it would play out in exactly the same way as the Almighty first saw the event in real life, so long as the simulation was running an accurate portrayal of the characters involved. Then when the viewer does enter the simulation, the character's responses to the situation should reflect what the actual people would have done in a reasonably accurate fashion.
That explanation works for me anyway. ;)
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I would imagine that if he did go back in time, it would be to moments where the outcome would be more or less the same with or without his interference. The wife and child find some way to survive until the Radiants get there, the king gets the idea for a book somewhere else (sorry, having trouble with names, it's been a long day.) So, either way, it can't matter that much whether he's traveling or just witnessing events. The Almighty did say he didn't know who'd get the messages, right? I can't imagine he'd let the possibility exist that some real slimeball could travel back in time and figure out a way to exploit or change events. He could be making everything much worse.
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It seems more likely to me that the Almighty would be able to take a "snapshot" of the personality of the people involved in the event he is 'recording', thus instead of a static recording the visions are able to react to Dalinars actions within the scope of the personality that each character in the vision was modeled after. If the Almighty's powers are equal to even a simple computer (and I have to assume they are) then its no big deal at all to just run the simulation.
Thus the visions aren't "custom molded" to the viewer so much as dynamically generated based on the recorded personalities. In this case we could assume that if the simulation is run without the presence of the viewer to affect it, then it would play out in exactly the same way as the Almighty first saw the event in real life, so long as the simulation was running an accurate portrayal of the characters involved. Then when the viewer does enter the simulation, the character's responses to the situation should reflect what the actual people would have done in a reasonably accurate fashion.
That explanation works for me anyway. ;)
AI lol. What happens if the Almighty gives these recordings AI and they become so smart they revolt against the humans and take over Roshar!! They live in the highstorms, so you can't hide from them :o Maybe they are the voidbringers, and the Almighty is Odium in disguise!!
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It seems more likely to me that the Almighty would be able to take a "snapshot" of the personality of the people involved in the event he is 'recording', thus instead of a static recording the visions are able to react to Dalinars actions within the scope of the personality that each character in the vision was modeled after. If the Almighty's powers are equal to even a simple computer (and I have to assume they are) then its no big deal at all to just run the simulation.
Thus the visions aren't "custom molded" to the viewer so much as dynamically generated based on the recorded personalities. In this case we could assume that if the simulation is run without the presence of the viewer to affect it, then it would play out in exactly the same way as the Almighty first saw the event in real life, so long as the simulation was running an accurate portrayal of the characters involved. Then when the viewer does enter the simulation, the character's responses to the situation should reflect what the actual people would have done in a reasonably accurate fashion.
That explanation works for me anyway. ;)
But then why doesn't the Almighty react to Dalinar like the rest of the simulation? It seems like that would be an important feature to include in an interactive message to the future, especially given the trouble Dalinar gets into because of the lack of it.
The sort of situation I have in mind is something along the lines of the Dr. Who episode "Blink", in which the characters have a "conversation" with a pre-recorded video message from a time traveller: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZRhj03MZD4&feature=related. The viewers can have causal interactions with people and objects in their perceived "present", but cannot interact directly with the narrator.
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I love that episode, but that one is based on the fact that the Doctor has gone into the future, to get the transcript that they have to read in the past to be made in the future, creating a continuing cycle, and a sort of paradox. This can't apply here because the Almighty is already dead, and he has bad ability to look into the future, he doesn't even know who he is talking to!!!
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I'd like to get Peter's input on this. I can almost guarantee there is no time travel involved in any way here. None of Brandon's Magic systems have ever involved time travel. Yes they can bend and distort it, and even view things from the past and future, but never interact with it. His interview on the 17th shard pretty much states that all his magic systems follow some type of similar rule set.
Thus an interactive recording of some sort is a far more in-world explanation.
Why the Almighty doesn't have a set of conditionals designed for his own responses is a good question however. Maybe he even does, but Dalinar has been asking retarded questions that have no designated response. Like: "Should I trust Sadeas"
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BTW Storm that was a rather rude response to a perfectly valid theory, I mean are we trying to encourage the sharing of thought here or not?
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Just because he hasn't done it doesn't mean it can't be done. Anyway, Brandon has only worried himself in the future so far, not really focusing on the past, so its hard to tell, whether or not its possible just from what Brandon hasn't done.
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Given Vorinism's extreme taboo regarding predictions, I'm not ready to take time-travel paradoxes off the table just yet. ;) Enjoying the discussion though. ;D
If we bring Shadesmar into play (my catch-all explanation for everything!), we could potentially eliminate the mechanics of time travel from the equation. I don't see any particular reason why a "cognitive realm" would have to follow the same rules of time as the physical realm.
It's pretty clear that Dalinar's body isn't going anywhere during his visions (much to the chagrin of his troops) -- it's just his mind that is bouncing around (or just going unhinged). It could be that the entire scene takes place simultaneously in the cognitive realm for all participants, but is directly correlated with a specific moment in the past in the physical realm.
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I like the idea of Shadesmar being the matrix (can't remember who mentioned that now), and the AI simulated people from the past (voidbringers) are the Agent Smith's.
But seriously, if time travel is possible, it would be through Shadesmar. Hoid uses the cognitive realm to planet-hop, and time-travel and planet-hopping are very closely related scientifically (time-space continuum, anyone?), but of course I'm not a physicist.
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Something does seem to be slightly different in these visions. It's not really a standard "view the past" vision, as, like you said, Dalinar has been interacting with people. Although I love the idea of time travel, and that Dalinar had influenced huge decisions in the past from the present day, it doesn't really seem to fit the theme. But then again, there is so much we don't know in regards to how everything works in Roshar and Shadesmar, that I could very well be wrong too :)
The only thing that holds me back from that is the admission from the Almighty himself that these were essentially recordings. Obviously very elegant and complicated recordings, but recordings nonetheless. That's why I wouldn't cast a vote for time travel, even though I absolutely love the thought of it!
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I agree with the above, I love the idea of time travel, but it seems that a recording is more likely.
Of course, if Shadesmar, or the spiritual realm (whatever that's called) exists outside of time (which is certainly possible), then time travel should be possible. If Shadesmar can indeed be used to planet hop/teleport, then Shadesmar can be used to time travel. It's simply a matter of putting yourself "sometime else" instead of "someplace else".
This is all, of course, just wild speculation.
But fascinating wild speculation.
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Time travel is a hard idea to do properly. Lots of people have tried, and many have failed. The trouble is that causality is such a deep part of our understanding of the world (instinctive, I suspect) that we just can't deal with what time travel would do to us. Partly because of this, I suspect that the recordings theory is more accurate than actual time travel in this case.
My theory is that the Almighty's ability to give visions is related to Shallan's memories. Because the Almighty is a Shardholder, he has the ability to Memorize, not a two-dimensional image, but a whole scene in time, including the personalities (spirits?) of the people involved. Just like his taking the memory would be more powerful than Shallan's memories, his ability to play them back would also be extremely enhanced, resulting in what is essentially a three-dimensional interactive world. Just like Shallan, however, he has a hard time placing himself in the scene---changing what he saw would presumably be a lot harder, and putting himself into the scenes means changing one of the participants personalities, suspending the playback, or similar changes. It's harder, and probably requires more time; time he may not have had when he realized Odium was going to kill him.
Notice that the scene in which the Almighty appears himself is not at all interactive. It's setting probably comes from a possible future, so even then it would not be created from complete scratch.
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Very true. I think it likely that Shallan's Memories can take a snapshot of the Physical Realm (and physical perception), whereas the Almighty can take a snapshot of the cognitive realm as well, so he is able to recreate the cognitive aspects of the characters/beings, not just their physical aspects. This is then recorded into an incredibly detailed Matrix-esque* simulation, and sent to people's minds.
*Think the "Woman in the Red Dress" scene near the beginning of The Matrix. Actual humans are put into an interactive simulation with a script. The only real difference is that the Almighty's AI's are far more detailed and based on actual humans, now deceased. Neo and Morpheus's conversation could have gone dozens of ways, and each of them could have killed, or interacted with the AI's in dozens of different ways, as they were in a simulation.
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The visions repeat, so that's especially good evidence that it's not "time travel" of some kind.
Godly recording with interactive playback works for me.
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What is cool is Brandon has said that Hoid is traveling and has figured out a way to travel with his body. He also said that there are other ways to do it that doesn't involve taking your physical body. I found that kinda interesting. He told that to firstrainbowrose, Josh, and Nehex from the 17th shard.
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The visions didn't repeat. The last vision was an extension of the first vision. And that was the exception, not set in the past, but a view of a possible future. It was like a circular argument. You start by showing a teaser of the end, then present your argument (the past) then end with the beginning scene, but extending it to encompass the argument you have made.