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Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Timemaster11 on September 26, 2010, 08:30:58 PM

Title: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Timemaster11 on September 26, 2010, 08:30:58 PM
I believe I have discovered the identities of all the Herald images.

First, if one looks in the Ars Arcanium, one may notice that the ten numbers for the ten essences are actually shortened versions of the Herald names. 
1)Jes=Jezrien
2)Nan=Nalan
6)Shash=Shalash
8)Kak=Kalak
9)Tanat=Talenel (also known as Talenelat)
10)Ishi=Ishar

Thus, we have the element association of each of the Heralds, as well as on abbreviated form of all of their names.

Also, note that on the front inside cover, the image with all the symbols surrounded by the Herald images, if one starts with the blue symbol and moves clockwise around the image, the symbols appear to match, in order, with the Gemstones.
1)Blue-Sapphire
3)Red-Ruby
4)White-Diamond
5)Green-Emerald
6)Red-Garnet
8)Purple-Amethyst
9)Dark Yellow-Topaz

Now, note that approximately above each symbol is one of the Herald images.
My theory is that the Herald image above each symbol is the Herald of that gemstone.

Supporting evidence:
1) The image easily identified, Jezrien, is associated with the sapphire symbol.
2) It is stated that the Heralds are 5 female, 5 male.  Of those, Jezrien, Nalan, Kalak, and Talenel are all known to be male.  The gemstone symbols connected to these 4 are all associated with male images. 
3) Many believe that Ishar is a male-sounding name, and believe Ishar to be the fifth male.  Ishar's gemstone symbol is associated with the fifth male image.
4) It is noted that whenever Hoid appears, his image appears.  Assuming that there is some pattern to the appearing of the other images, another image can be positively identified.  In the epilogue, the helmed image appears.  Thus, it appears Talenel is the helmed image.  Note now that the helmed image is associated with Talenel's gemstone symbol, Topaz.
5) From the specifics of Shallan's attributes, it has been thought that Shallan is of the 6th radiant order, Garnet, thus associated with Shalash.  Note that each of the times she enters Shadesmar, the image of the lady with a jewel on her forehead appears.  This image is the one associated with the garnet symbol.

On a side note, there are only 3 non-Shallan chapters where the proposed-Shalash image appears.  One of those is the Baxil chapter, where that image is the only one.  It has been separately proposed that Baxil's mistress is actually Shalash, which fits well with that image being the sole one for the chapter.
5
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: ROSHtafARian on September 26, 2010, 10:39:05 PM
I posted this in the Heralds thread, but bringing it over here, some additional things to think about that could support Shallan being of the order Shalash is tied to, and Shalash being Baxil's mistress is if there are two Orders that use Soulcasting, Shallan and Jasnah seem to be of the two of them, instead of them both being of the same one, due to specifics of Shallan's Soulcasting experiences that Jasnah is surprised by.  Added to Shallan's artistic skills and how they're tied to a seemingly mystical kind of Memories and that Jasnah has no appreciation or respect for art, it would seem to follow that art and Memories are part of what's specific to Shallan's order and sets it apart from the other Order wielding a form of Soulcasting.  Baxil's mistress being Shalash and her obssession with artistic representations of herself would definitely seem to tie into the idea that she is the Herald of Shallan's order, and art plays a big role in their specific nature.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Timemaster11 on September 26, 2010, 11:12:43 PM
One question to consider is how Brandon chose the images for each chapter, and what those might tell us about those chapters.  For instance, most chapters with Jasnah have the woman associated with Emerald.  The two main times we see her obviously soulcast, this Herald is in the chapter headings.  Yet, the time both Jasnah and Shallan go to Shadesmar, the Herald in the chapter heading besides Shalash is the one associated with Zircon.
The first one has the attributes Just/Confident
The second one has the attributes Wise/Careful

I think these may be the two main options we have for Jasnah's order.

It would be interesting to see what all we can surmise from the Heralds chosen in the chapter headings.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: ROSHtafARian on September 26, 2010, 11:17:53 PM
Hmm, I don't have the table in front of me, but what are the essences or attributes associated with Shalash and Shallan's presumed order?  The Garnet one?
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Timemaster11 on September 26, 2010, 11:23:12 PM
Yes.  The attributes for that order associated with Garnet are Creative/Honest.  The essence is blood.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: ROSHtafARian on September 26, 2010, 11:31:45 PM
Yeah, I'd have to say I don't see how Shallan could possibly be anything other than Garnet, with the spren requiring a great Truth from her to Soulcast, and with some kind of power with her art.  And given Shalash's preoccupation with art, there's some power in the creation of certain kinds of art, or the things or people depicted in that art, and she pretty much has to be the Herald attached to that order.  Plus creativity and honesty definitely seem like the attributes of a godlike figure called Lady of Dreams at some point throughout history.

Which means I'm pretty convinced you're dead on with the other identities as well.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 27, 2010, 01:09:42 AM
Jasnah is probably from the other order that can soulcast. SHe is definitely not creative, and spurns art, so she could not be of the same order as Shallan. This would also explain why Jasnah was surprised by the line spren that were following Shallan, as for Jasnah it is probably a totally different experience.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 27, 2010, 01:18:09 AM
Now that we know what picture relates to which herald, can we work out why each Herald is related to each chapter? I think we have most of them already, such as Shalash and Hoid, but there are still a number of chapters unaccounted for.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: ROSHtafARian on September 27, 2010, 02:00:38 AM
Well, do the Emerald, Garnet or Zircon Heralds show up at the headings to any chapters with Elkohar?  Depending on if the line headed spren are associated with any kind of soulcasting, or if there are two different kinds of spren for the two different versions of soulcasting, Elkohar as a potential Soulcaster could reveal a lot.  If Shalash is one of the images with chapters he's in, that would seem to indicate he's potentially of the same order as Shallan...but as I think he's more likely of the same order as Jasnah, if Zircon or Emerald head any of his chapters, that might indicate that one is the other Soulcasting order.  Personally I think Emerald is the other Soulcasting order, as I think the attributes fit Jasnah better than Wise/Careful, especially with all her talk of ethics and morals....whether you agree with her stance on morality, SHE'S completely convinced of the rightness of her moral stance, and maybe that's what attracts Just or Righteous spren or whatever you might call them.  I don't think Zircon fits Jasnah as well, personally, and I think it might have been there because the Zircon Herald has something to do with Shadesmar, specifically.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 27, 2010, 02:19:15 AM
In chapter 18 - Highprince of War - it isn't Shallash (I can't work out who it is as i dont have a US edition of WoK). However in chapter 69 - Justice - she is in it. But while these chapters both have Elhokar in them, I do not know if those Heralds correspond with him or someone else.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: ROSHtafARian on September 27, 2010, 02:24:53 AM
Hmm, well I can't think of anyone else who shares chapters with Elkohar who would fit the same mold as Shalash/Shallan with the exception of Navani.  And I don't think she has any potential Radiant powers, but she is creative and honest, so maybe it could still be her...except I don't remember her being in that chapter.

My gut instinct is that Elkohar's more likely of Shallan's order than Jasnah's, even though he is related to Jasnah.  The attributes just seem more like him, plus he sees the wavy headed spren.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 27, 2010, 02:39:19 AM
Navani is in fact in chapter 69 - Justice
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: ROSHtafARian on September 27, 2010, 02:44:52 AM
Damn.  It could be referring to her then, because Shalash/Garnet fits Navani a lot better than Elkohar at this point.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 27, 2010, 02:47:22 AM
It could also be possible that Elhokar does not soulcast at all, and the line spren he see are similar, but actually different than those seen by Shallan and Jasnah. Note that Shallan and Jasnah probably see different spren as they are from different orders, yet they make no mention of the spren looking different, so maybe some spren just look similar.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on September 27, 2010, 02:50:26 AM
There is a mistake in the Ars Arcanum. "Learned/Giving" should be switched with "Just/Confident." Just/Confident should go under 2 Nan and Learned/Giving should go under 5 Palah.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Timemaster11 on September 27, 2010, 03:03:59 AM
The chapter where Elhokar mentions seeing the spren (Ch. 58) does have the Zircon herald as one of the two Heralds.  Whether this choice was due to Elhokar or not is another matter entirely.

It is also possible that some of the choices of Herald images signify the qualities being displayed in that chapter, and not just the powers someone has. 

It would be nice to find out if Brandon Sanderson was ever random on the images chosen, if he put a lot of thought into all of the images, or only put a lot of thought into some of them.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: ROSHtafARian on September 27, 2010, 05:39:44 AM
Wow, thanks Peter.  That makes a huge difference, and makes me even more convinced that Jasnah is associated with Palah.  Learned/giving fits her a hell of a lot more than Just/Confident.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 27, 2010, 06:57:00 AM
I haven't got the front cover symbols, so can anyone tell me, the herald that appears in chapter 72, would that be the herald for palash (symbolised by the emerald)?
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Timemaster11 on September 27, 2010, 07:58:43 AM
Yes, she does appear on Ch. 72.  The Herald for Palah is the one with hair going in every which direction.  Was there something in Ch. 72 that you noticed that would especially suggest her?

For reference: (using abbreviations)
1)Jes=king image
2)Nan=hooded man
3)Chach=woman with something akin to a helmet
4)Vev=hooded woman
5)Palah=woman with hair going all directions
6)Shash=woman with large jewel on forehead
7)Betab=woman with band around head, over hair
8)Kak=man with uncovered hair, long bangs
9)Tanat=helmed man
10)Ishi=old man with long beard
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 27, 2010, 12:34:57 PM
It was the chapter that Jasnah admits she can soulcast without a soulcaster. My reasoning is that such an important admission by Jasnah must be accompanied with the Herald that established her order. So my theory is that she is part of the palah order, which makes sense as she is learned. EDIT: Palah also appears in chapter 5 when we first meet Jasnah and see her soulcast.

I have noticed that the primary attribute for an essence is the characteristic which defines a person that is in the order. E.g. Shallan is creative, Dalinar is a leader and Jasnah is learned.

The second attribute is usually what the bonded spren 'feeds on' in order to allow that person to use their powers. E.g. Shallan must give truth to the honesty spren and Dalinar started glowing after protecting his nephew and king.

I then wonder (assuming im not horribly wrong) what sort of spren would be synonymous with giving and what Jasnah would have to give up in order to soulcast.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: ROSHtafARian on September 27, 2010, 07:02:40 PM
Giftspren or sacrificespren?  If Shallan has to admit a truth to a truth or honesty spren, and Kaladin has to act with honor, I would think that the spren powering Jasnah would have to be attracted to some kind of selflessness.  Like maybe to Soulcast she has to give a bit of knowledge precious to her.

Especially if Jasnah's interests in academia and learning and increasing her knowledge was not for personal gain or status (something that definitely seems in keeping with her character) but for the good of mankind.  She's trying to find the truth about the Voidbringers, to protect humanity, discover who killed her father and why the Parshendi are now so hostile to humans...all things that don't benefit her personally, but she seeks to learn in order to give that knowledge to help everyone.  A givingspren sounds about right to me.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: guy on September 27, 2010, 07:08:30 PM
I still dont see why Jasnah cant just have the same spren as Shallan does, she could have to tell a truth as well, she does after all look for truth in history, and she seems very honest to herself and others.  also do the things you say to the spren need to actually be true, or do you just have to believe it?  and can you use them as a sort of magic eight ball?
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: FollowYourMuse on September 27, 2010, 08:00:44 PM
I still dont see why Jasnah cant just have the same spren as Shallan does, she could have to tell a truth as well, she does after all look for truth in history, and she seems very honest to herself and others.  also do the things you say to the spren need to actually be true, or do you just have to believe it?  and can you use them as a sort of magic eight ball?

I think just by thinking of the series, and that we know there are 10 orders of the knights Radiant, that it would not make sence for 2 of the main POV charachters to be of the same order.

I think Jasnah's coment  could point to this, that she assumes Shallan is the same , of the Same order,  but realizes that she isnt.
Quote
Jasnah frowned, taking the image. "You see beings like this? In Shadesmar?"
...
Jasnah held up a hand. "These are a type of spren, Shallan. They are related to what you do." She tapped the desk softly. "Two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasting ability; it was based on their powers that the original fabrials were designed, I believe. I had assumed that you... But no, that obviously wouldn't make sense. I see now."
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Galavantes on September 28, 2010, 01:32:22 AM
Great now we have to analyze every single chapter.....starting with chapter 51!  We're fairly sure at this point that Kaladin is associated with Jes. So why is chapter 51 headed with nothing but the image for the 2nd Herald? The unknown Herald of Nan? Hmmm
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 28, 2010, 02:21:35 AM
Great now we have to analyze every single chapter.....starting with chapter 51!  We're fairly sure at this point that Kaladin is associated with Jes. So why is chapter 51 headed with nothing but the image for the 2nd Herald? The unknown Herald of Nan? Hmmm

Actually, alot of Kaladin's chapters have Taln at the start. More so than Jezrien.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Galavantes on September 28, 2010, 05:13:01 AM
Great now we have to analyze every single chapter.....starting with chapter 51!  We're fairly sure at this point that Kaladin is associated with Jes. So why is chapter 51 headed with nothing but the image for the 2nd Herald? The unknown Herald of Nan? Hmmm

Actually, alot of Kaladin's chapters have Taln at the start. More so than Jezrien.

That's my point, we have to look at all of them now and figure out why.
And several chapters have more than one represented. I think Protecting/Leading fits Kal far more than Dependable/Resourceful, despite him being also being the latter.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 28, 2010, 05:58:23 AM
Yes I have been wondering the same thing. I think the key to understanding which order Kaladin is depends on which divine attribute closely resembles honour, for Kaladin's spren is an honourspren.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Timemaster11 on September 28, 2010, 07:39:25 AM
Another common image for Kaladin is Vev, with the attributes Loving/Healing.  Almost all of Kaladin's past scenes have her, as well as many of his present ones.  She always seems to be in the chapter heading when Kaladin is trying to heal someone, or when his old surgeon side comes out.

Maybe sometimes a Herald image was chosen to match a quality or qualities being displayed in that chapter, which, in Kaladin's case, was healing.

Also, the most telling image for Kaladin's order specifically would have been the chapter "WORDS", where he says the Second Ideal specific and unique to his Radiant Order.  In that chapter, it is Jezrien's image alone that appears, linking Kaladin with the 1st order and the attributes Protecting/Leading.  (In fact, the words "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves" suggests the attribute of protecting for Kaladin's order.)
Thus, I would highly suspect that Kaladin is of the 1st order.

Of course, the question now is, what common thread runs through those Kaladin chapters where Talenel's image appears?  (as healing runs through most of the Vev chapters)
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 28, 2010, 07:51:20 AM
I believe that she may be also connected to Kaladin's Dad, who is more fitted for the order of Vev than Kaladin is, though in the old days he was more suited to Vev as well, so it can go wither way. Maybe people can change orders as they change as a person.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: guy on September 28, 2010, 07:56:04 PM
I think just by thinking of the series, and that we know there are 10 orders of the knights Radiant, that it would not make sence for 2 of the main POV charachters to be of the same order.
so we can reasonably assume that Szeth and Kaladin are in different orders?  the ars arcanum does mention that windrunners used two orders of surgebinding
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Cheese Ninja on September 28, 2010, 10:50:05 PM
I think just by thinking of the series, and that we know there are 10 orders of the knights Radiant, that it would not make sence for 2 of the main POV charachters to be of the same order.
so we can reasonably assume that Szeth and Kaladin are in different orders?  the ars arcanum does mention that windrunners used two orders of surgebinding

actually it said:
Quote
The Windrunners were an order of the Knights Radiant, and they made use of two primary types of Surgebinding.
Pretty sure all the Windrunners are of the same Order(1st).  I think the mechanic for using Stormlight differs between Orders.  Jes's Body Focus is "Inhalation" which is how both Szeth and Kaladin absorb Stormlight. 

That said, I don't see how the body focus applies to the bit of Soulcasting we've seen from  Jasnah and Shallan.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Rew on September 28, 2010, 11:46:15 PM
Merely guesses, but seems to me that...
Shallan is probably connected to Shalash, number 6 with the focus and essence being blood- she enters Shadesmar first right after she sheds her own blood- and is creative and honest

Jasnah is probably connected to number 5 Palah (as was stated earlier), she has some connection to hair, as she does have the Royal Locks, pure-bred Alethi hair, and is very learned, and we'll probably see her become very giving with her knowledge...
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: guy on September 29, 2010, 05:39:06 PM
So couldthe two types of surgebindings used by windrunners be just inhaling it and using it to strengthen their bodies, and then exhaling it or somehow using it to do the lashings?
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Cheese Ninja on September 29, 2010, 06:36:07 PM
Sorry, I didn't post the whole thing.
Quote
The Windrunners were an order of the Knights Radiant, and they made use of two primary types of Surgebinding. The effects of these Surgebindings were known—colloquially among the members of the order—as the Three Lashings.
The two types are Basic and Full Lashings, and Reverse Lashing is just a specialized version of Basic, it says.

Some of the other Orders might do the inhaling Stormlight trick too, or maybe they can learn it, but they just aren't as good at it as Windrunners.  Lashings/Surgebinding seem to be limited only a few Orders (could it be only Windrunners?)
Quote
“Our own natures destroy us,” the regal man said, voice soft, though his face was angry. “Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.”
So, Alakavish was a Surgebinder with a spren, but not an honorspren?  Nohadon's book led to the creation of the Orders of Knights Radiant, which is interesting just by itself.  I've got to wonder if the Almighty or the Heralds somehow affected the book.

I think Dustbringers might be Chach, since its Soulcasting property is Fire.

We're getting a bit far off-topic now though, maybe we should move this to another thread.  There's no lack of Spren/Knights Radiants threads.

On topic:  Do you think it's safe to assume that any Herald in the chapter picture either features in the chapter, or that characters featured in the chapter demonstrate/embody some aspect for which the Herald(s) is/are known?  Or maybe just any Heraldic association that's listed on the chart in the Ars Arcanum?
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 30, 2010, 02:34:56 AM
It is interesting looking at the relationship between the Knights and the WoK book (in the book - this is going to get confusing)

So the 10 orders obviously existed before the book, as they were established by the 10 heralds based on the 10 elements created most likely by the Almighty. But prior to WoK (again in the book) there may have been lacking a proper moral code. They would've had their mottos (though its not certain) that Kaladin spoke near the end of the book. Other than that, they would have no guide, which probably led to a number of problems, hinted at by Nohadon. So he wrote the book as a guide for all rulers, but it was adopted also by the knights radiant.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Pechvarry on September 30, 2010, 04:35:13 AM
I'm willing to bet Elhokar's associated with Zircon/Betab.  Wise/Careful -- we'll eventually see Wise when he starts showing the potential Dalinar's always talking about him having.  But paranoia's about as careful as it gets.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: elsyan on September 30, 2010, 02:09:40 PM
Hi all!  First post here.  I figured I'd post my table that maps each chapter's heralds to attributes (thanks to work in this thread!).  I'm using it to analyze each chapter. 

(sorry for the format it seems I can't post html tables)

---

Chapter   Symbol   Herald Name 1   Attribute 1   Attribute 2   Herald Name 2   Attribute 1   Attribute 2
Prologue   Szeth   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading
1   Kaladin   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful
2   Kaladin   Vev   Loving   Healing   Vev   Loving   Healing
3   Shallan   Shalash   Creative   Honest   Shalash   Creative   Honest
4   Shallan   Ishar   Pious   Guiding   Ishar   Pious   Guiding
5   Shallan   Palah?   Learned   Giving   Palah?   Learned   Giving
6   Kaladin   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful
7   Shallan   Ishar   Pious   Guiding   Ishar   Pious   Guiding
8   Shallan   Palah?   Learned   Giving   Palah?   Learned   Giving
9   Kaladin   Nalan   Just   Confident   Nalan   Just   Confident
10   Kaladin   Vev   Loving   Healing   Vev   Loving   Healing
11   Kaladin   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading
I-1   Almighty   Hoid   ?   ?   Hoid   ?   ?
I-2   Almighty   Kalak/Kelek   Resolute   Builder   Kalak/Kelek   Resolute   Builder
I-3   Szeth   Shalash   Creative   Honest   Shalash   Creative   Honest
12   Dalinar   Hoid   ?   ?   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading
13   Dalinar   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading   Chach?   Brave   Obedient
14   Kaladin   Kalak/Kelek   Resolute   Builder   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading
15   Dalinar   Chach?   Brave   Obedient   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading
16   Kaladin   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful   Vev   Loving   Healing
17   Kaladin   Vev   Loving   Healing   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful
18   Dalinar   Betab?   Wise   Careful   Betab?   Wise   Careful
19   Dalinar   Vev   Loving   Healing   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading
20   Kaladin   Vev   Loving   Healing   Vev   Loving   Healing
21   Kaladin   Vev   Loving   Healing   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful
22   Dalinar   Hoid   ?   ?   Kalak/Kelek   Resolute   Builder
23   Kaladin   Ishar   Pious   Guiding   Vev   Loving   Healing
24   Dalinar   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading   Chach?   Brave   Obedient
25   Kaladin   Betab?   Wise   Careful   Nalan   Just   Confident
26   Dalinar   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful
27   Kaladin   Vev   Loving   Healing   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful
28   Dalinar   Palah?   Learned   Giving   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading
I-4   Almighty   Betab?   Wise   Careful   Betab?   Wise   Careful
I-5   Almighty   Palah?   Learned   Giving   Palah?   Learned   Giving
I-6   Szeth   Nalan   Just   Confident   Nalan   Just   Confident
29   Shallan   Shalash   Creative   Honest   Palah?   Learned   Giving
30   Kaladin   Vev   Loving   Healing   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful
31   Kaladin   Chach?   Brave   Obedient   Vev   Loving   Healing
32   Kaladin   Nalan   Just   Confident   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful
33   Shallan   Ishar   Pious   Guiding   Palah?   Learned   Giving
34   Kaladin   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading   Nalan   Just   Confident
35   Kaladin   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading
36   Shallan   Vev   Loving   Healing   Palah?   Learned   Giving
37   Kaladin   Palah?   Learned   Giving   Vev   Loving   Healing
38   Kaladin   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading   Vev   Loving   Healing
39   Shallan   Nalan   Just   Confident   Shalash   Creative   Honest
40   Kaladin   Kalak/Kelek   Resolute   Builder   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful
41   Kaladin   Nalan   Just   Confident   Vev   Loving   Healing
42   Shallan   Palah?   Learned   Giving   Ishar   Pious   Guiding
43   Kaladin   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful
44   Kaladin   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful   Vev   Loving   Healing
45   Shallan   Shalash   Creative   Honest   Palah?   Learned   Giving
46   Kaladin   Chach?   Brave   Obedient   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading
47   Kaladin   Nalan   Just   Confident   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful
48   Shallan   Ishar   Pious   Guiding   Ishar   Pious   Guiding
49   Kaladin   Kalak/Kelek   Resolute   Builder   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful
50   Shallan   Vev   Loving   Healing   Vev   Loving   Healing
51   Kaladin   Nalan   Just   Confident   Nalan   Just   Confident
I-7   Almighty   Shalash   Creative   Honest   Shalash   Creative   Honest
I-8   Almighty   Palah?   Learned   Giving   Palah?   Learned   Giving
I-9   Szeth   Nalan   Just   Confident   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading
52   Dalinar   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading
53   Kaladin   Vev   Loving   Healing   Vev   Loving   Healing
54   Dalinar   Nalan   Just   Confident   Hoid   ?   ?
55   Kaladin   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful
56   Dalinar   Chach?   Brave   Obedient   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading
57   Kaladin   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading   Hoid   ?   ?
58   Dalinar   Betab?   Wise   Careful   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading
59   Kaladin   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading   Kalak/Kelek   Resolute   Builder
60   Dalinar   Palah?   Learned   Giving   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading
61   Dalinar   Kalak/Kelek   Resolute   Builder   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful
62   Kaladin   Vev   Loving   Healing   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful
63   Kaladin   Chach?   Brave   Obedient   Kalak/Kelek   Resolute   Builder
64   Dalinar   Betab?   Wise   Careful   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful
65   Dalinar   Nalan   Just   Confident   Chach?   Brave   Obedient
66   Dalinar   Nalan   Just   Confident   Vev   Loving   Healing
67   Kaladin   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading
68   Dalinar   Betab?   Wise   Careful   Chach?   Brave   Obedient
69   Dalinar   Nalan   Just   Confident   Shalash   Creative   Honest
70   Shallan   Betab?   Wise   Careful   Shalash   Creative   Honest
71   Szeth   Nalan   Just   Confident   Vev   Loving   Healing
72   Shallan   Palah?   Learned   Giving   Palah?   Learned   Giving
73   Kaladin   Vev   Loving   Healing   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading
74   Shallan   Ishar   Pious   Guiding   Palah?   Learned   Giving
75   Dalinar   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading   Jezrien   Protecting   Leading
Epilogue   Almighty   Talenelat   Dependable   Resourceful   Hoid   ?   ?
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on September 30, 2010, 02:22:51 PM
Just reading this list makes my head spin. Can anyone see any patterns so far? I think a summary of each chapter will be needed to discern the use of most of the heralds.

At least the use of Hoid is obvious.  :D
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: elsyan on September 30, 2010, 02:47:48 PM
Yup.  I'm working on it.  Really though it'd be great if there were a wiki here to contribute to so we could all analyze it together. 
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Dryone on September 30, 2010, 07:31:08 PM
Yup.  I'm working on it.  Really though it'd be great if there were a wiki here to contribute to so we could all analyze it together. 

Like this? http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Stormlight_Archive_Wiki

Or we could use Google docs.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: elsyan on September 30, 2010, 07:58:13 PM
It's up on the stormlight archive wiki.  It's a bit big and unwieldy as I merged in some other info I found to speed the analysis but it should work.

http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Heralds_in_Chapter_Titles
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: elsyan on October 04, 2010, 12:50:36 PM
I've finished a first cut of all chapters and highlighted any strange heralds (as compared to the plot of each chapter).  Please take a look and improve!
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on October 04, 2010, 01:02:09 PM
It looks good. I especially like the idea of a herald being linked some way to the Ghostbloods.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: elsyan on October 04, 2010, 01:58:13 PM
Also I copied the inside cover to use to identify the symbol/color/picture for each Herald for easier reference and identified soulcasting since that's the one we know must be shared between Jasnah and Shallan.

http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/File:Heralds.jpg
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: KhyEllie on October 04, 2010, 03:58:34 PM
Sweet. It's a stretch, but there are also ten countries on the map next to it, vaguely set up like the Heralds on the first map. any connections?
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: guy on October 04, 2010, 06:02:15 PM
I have been tending to think that the heralds corresponded to the other symbol map on the back, i thought the one on the front always looked more voidbringer-esque with the whole big scary face behind it and all
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: elsyan on October 04, 2010, 06:04:33 PM
Sweet. It's a stretch, but there are also ten countries on the map next to it, vaguely set up like the Heralds on the first map. any connections?

I don't *think* so.  However your comment made me think of the background of the picture which looks like two dragons mirrored but also reminds me of the cymatic drawings of the towns.  Could the background be the shape of the city of Urithiru?  *wild speculation*

Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: KhyEllie on October 08, 2010, 09:23:54 PM
On I-1 and ch. 12 the guy with the mask--is that confirmed to be Hoid?
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on October 09, 2010, 12:19:06 AM
On I-1 and ch. 12 the guy with the mask--is that confirmed to be Hoid?

Who else could it possibly be?
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: KhyEllie on October 09, 2010, 02:55:42 AM
Good point  :P
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on October 09, 2010, 08:04:00 AM
The portraits do not necessarily represent how anyone actually looks. They're more idealized, in-world carved stone art.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Galavantes on October 09, 2010, 06:42:08 PM
The portraits do not necessarily represent how anyone actually looks. They're more idealized, in-world carved stone art.

So....you're saying someone made a stonework carving of Hoid? I wonder why...
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: KhyEllie on October 09, 2010, 08:01:45 PM
Also I copied the inside cover to use to identify the symbol/color/picture for each Herald for easier reference and identified soulcasting since that's the one we know must be shared between Jasnah and Shallan.

http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/File:Heralds.jpg

Might I suggest that we know one other besides Soulcasting? In ch. 19--Dalinar's first vision--we see these two things:
~Pg. 303
Quote
Dalinar lurched, turning to see a woman in delicate Shardplate kneeling beside him holding something bright. It was topaz entwined with a heliodor, both set into a fine metal framework, each stone as big as a man's hand.
Topaz and Heliodor are Taln and Ishi, which would mean that connecting the two of them ends up with the Shardbearing girl's ability:
~Pg. 306
Quote
"Lady Knight, could you heal him again?"
"I should save Regrowth for others who might be wounded."
Which would make the top left small circle Regrowth.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Harakeke on October 09, 2010, 08:25:30 PM
Aha!  Yes, I agree that that's another form of the Almighty's powerful Capitilization magic.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Timemaster11 on October 09, 2010, 09:30:12 PM
Are we sure she isn't soulcasting?  The essences for Topaz and Heliodor are Bone and Flesh.  Jasnah says that when soulcasting, it is really easy to make an essence.  Thus, it should be really easy to soulcast bone and flesh, especially with stones that big.  Considering Jasnah soulcast Shallan's blood, might this be a soulcasting capability as well?

That brings up another question:

Can Jasnah or Shallan potentially perform this same feat?
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Stormblessed on October 10, 2010, 03:09:59 AM
I would have thought Vev would be the order that healed.

In addition, maybe Hoid has visited Roshar in the past. Maybe he was there during the Last desolation, or when the way of kings was written? At that time his sculpture was made, for they realised Hoid had some secret power.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: ryos on October 10, 2010, 09:25:20 PM
I would have thought Vev would be the order that healed.

In addition, maybe Hoid has visited Roshar in the past. Maybe he was there during the Last desolation, or when the way of kings was written? At that time his sculpture was made, for they realised Hoid had some secret power.

That's an awesome realization if true. It seems likely enough—Hoid's got a grudge against Rayse and Bavadin, after all.
Title: Re: Herald Chapter Pictures--Identities *spoilers*
Post by: Timemaster11 on October 11, 2010, 05:25:10 AM
We recently received another piece to the puzzle of deciphering the Knights Radiant orders.

See Brandon Sanderson interview:
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/index.php/topic,324.0.html

In his interview, he states that each order has 2 powers, and each power is shared by 2 orders.  The small glyphs in the front cover signify the powers.  Thus, it is adjacent orders that share specific powers.

Thus, with Shallan being order Shash, Jasnah could only possibly be Palah, Shash, or Betab.  Since her personality eliminates Shash, that leaves only Palah or Betab, which are the two possible orders put forth for her earlier.

This also forces Kaladin and Szeth to be in the same, or adjacent, orders.