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Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: mycoltbug on September 21, 2010, 02:37:35 PM

Title: Truthless
Post by: mycoltbug on September 21, 2010, 02:37:35 PM
So I have theory it could be way off the mark but I wonder if being a Truthless has to do with breaking the Oath Pact with your spren and that part of the reason Szeth can't kill himself is because when he abandoned the Oath Pact his spren put a final oath on him in order to release him.   
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Munin on September 21, 2010, 02:41:32 PM
There are no spren in Shinovar.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Eerongal on September 21, 2010, 02:56:43 PM
There are no spren in Shinovar.

in so far that we know of. Remember Axies the collector stated that there are many spren who are nigh impossible to find/see. Just because we don't see any and the characters don't think they are any, to me, isn't a convincing argument that there aren't any, consider what we know from Axies.

That said, at this time, i don't think there is sufficient evidence for this theory regarding the truthless, there's too much about shinovar culture in general we don't know, and i don't think at this point they have a whole lot to do with spren in their culture (considering the previous point of discussion), and truthless means something to them, so i doubt being truthless has anything to do with spren.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Munin on September 21, 2010, 02:59:56 PM
My favorite theory so far (that I did not come up with) is that he became Truthless for becoming a Surgebinder to fight Voidbringers. The Shin apparently don't believe that Voidbringers exist, so Szeth's crime was learning to learn to do something sacrilegious for no reason (keep in mind that Stormlight is apparently sacred to the Shin). However, Szeth believes (or at least believed) that the Voidbringers exist, and that Surgebinding would be vital to stopping them.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Stormblessed on September 21, 2010, 03:06:37 PM
My favorite theory so far (that I did not come up with) is that he became Truthless for becoming a Surgebinder to fight Voidbringers. The Shin apparently don't believe that Voidbringers exist, so Szeth's crime was learning to learn to do something sacrilegious for no reason (keep in mind that Stormlight is apparently sacred to the Shin). However, Szeth believes (or at least believed) that the Voidbringers exist, and that Surgebinding would be vital to stopping them.

I like this theory. I always had problems understanding this line:

Quote
But, then, did they [the voidbringers] exist? His punishment declared that they didn't. His honour demanded that they did.

This theory does explain that line nicely.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on September 21, 2010, 05:28:31 PM
He's Truthless for trying to overthrow the government, hell he tells us that much.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Pechvarry on September 21, 2010, 05:48:26 PM
When?
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Omelethead on September 21, 2010, 06:30:50 PM
So I have theory it could be way off the mark but I wonder if being a Truthless has to do with breaking the Oath Pact with your spren and that part of the reason Szeth can't kill himself is because when he abandoned the Oath Pact his spren put a final oath on him in order to release him.   

Just my opinion here, but I don't think there is any compulsion or magic forcing Szeth to obey the holder of his oathstone or keeping him from killing himself. I think he is just that inherently honorable, as most Shin are.

Just because it's a fantasy series doesn't mean it has to have a fantastical explanation.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Munin on September 21, 2010, 06:56:12 PM
He's Truthless for trying to overthrow the government, hell he tells us that much.
What?

I never saw that in the book.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: dria on September 21, 2010, 07:04:51 PM
So I have theory it could be way off the mark but I wonder if being a Truthless has to do with breaking the Oath Pact with your spren and that part of the reason Szeth can't kill himself is because when he abandoned the Oath Pact his spren put a final oath on him in order to release him.   

Just my opinion here, but I don't think there is any compulsion or magic forcing Szeth to obey the holder of his oathstone or keeping him from killing himself. I think he is just that inherently honorable, as most Shin are.

Just because it's a fantasy series doesn't mean it has to have a fantastical explanation.

Well if we can assume that Szeth's powers are the same as Kaladin's (and I think everyone goes along with that) the same honor that keeps him obeying the oathstone holder is probably what attracted the honorspren to him in the first place. I'd say something about him attracting the spren is how he became Truthless. Now how he still has the powers with no obvious connection to the spren is an interesting question.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Cheese Ninja on September 21, 2010, 07:18:44 PM
Quote
Had the Parshendi known what they were consigning him to by tossing his Oathstone away as they fled Kholinar that night? Szeth had been required to recover it, then stand there beside the road, wondering if he would be discovered and executed—hoping he’d be discovered and executed—until a passing merchant had cared enough to inquire. By then, Szeth had stood only in a loincloth. His honor had forced him to discard the white clothing, as it would have made him easier to recognize. He had to preserve himself so that he could suffer.

Either there's some bond between him and the Oathstone that allows him to find it whenever it's unclaimed, or he was leaving with them, saw them toss it, left them to pick it up, and just stood there.  I'm thinking there's some sort of bond, presumably with more effects than just him being able to find it.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on September 21, 2010, 08:20:06 PM
Szeth talks about how he killed a large number of people in Shinovar, the powerful and their servants. This was before he was made Truthless and the sentence for his slaughter is that he must bear the weight of others sins, hence it made him a Truthless (he mentions this around the time he talks about how the Stone Gods will have his soul when he dies).
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Cheese Ninja on September 21, 2010, 08:44:08 PM
Szeth talks about how he killed a large number of people in Shinovar, the powerful and their servants. This was before he was made Truthless and the sentence for his slaughter is that he must bear the weight of others sins, hence it made him a Truthless (he mentions this around the time he talks about how the Stone Gods will have his soul when he dies).

Eh, where are you getting all of that from? This little paragraph?:
Quote
Dangerous thoughts. His way of life was all that remained to him. If he questioned Stone Shamanism, would he then question his nature as Truthless? Dangerous, dangerous. Though his murders and sins would damn him, at least his soul would be given to the stones upon his death. He would continue to exist. Punished, in agony, but not exiled to nothingness.
Better to exist in agony than to vanish entirely.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: dria on September 21, 2010, 09:26:05 PM

Eh, where are you getting all of that from? This little paragraph?:
Quote
Dangerous thoughts. His way of life was all that remained to him. If he questioned Stone Shamanism, would he then question his nature as Truthless? Dangerous, dangerous. Though his murders and sins would damn him, at least his soul would be given to the stones upon his death. He would continue to exist. Punished, in agony, but not exiled to nothingness.
Better to exist in agony than to vanish entirely.


Hmm, I missed this on my first reading and I just started my second so maybe that's why this occurs to me now. Does Szeth's talk of punishment there remind anyone else of Kalak talking about where he goes after he dies in the Prelude (Hardbound page 16)?

Quote
How long had it been? Centuries, perhaps millennia, of torture. It was so hard to keep track. Those fires, those hooks, digging into his flesh anew each day. Searing the skin off his arm, then burning the fat, then driving to the bone.

They are bound by an Oathpact and Szeth is bound by an Oathstone. Szeth never mentions the type of torture but if there are two different places people are punished after death that would be a bit coincidental. Maybe I'm drawing parallels where there are none but they seem connected somehow.

Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: happyman on September 21, 2010, 10:23:28 PM
Szeth talks about how he killed a large number of people in Shinovar, the powerful and their servants. This was before he was made Truthless and the sentence for his slaughter is that he must bear the weight of others sins, hence it made him a Truthless (he mentions this around the time he talks about how the Stone Gods will have his soul when he dies).

Eh, where are you getting all of that from? This little paragraph?:
Quote
Dangerous thoughts. His way of life was all that remained to him. If he questioned Stone Shamanism, would he then question his nature as Truthless? Dangerous, dangerous. Though his murders and sins would damn him, at least his soul would be given to the stones upon his death. He would continue to exist. Punished, in agony, but not exiled to nothingness.
Better to exist in agony than to vanish entirely.


I always assumed that the murders and sins he is talking about were the ones he committed after leaving Shinovar.  The Shin belief system apparently assumes that someone who has sinned too much can either go to hell or cease to exist entirely.  He chose to keep existing.  But it says nothing about trying to overthrow the government in Shinovar, or otherwise do anything violent whatsoever.

It's entirely possible that the Shin's belief in a hell of torment is related to things taught to them by the Heralds.  It's probably not a coincidence.  It's probably a small piece of truth that has been passed down through the ages, changed by the passage.  I don't read anything deeper here, or see that it teaches us anything about Truthless.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Patriotic Kaz on September 21, 2010, 11:24:15 PM
He explains somewhere why he became Truthless, it's not some small paragraph, but it's either in the book or I'm quite insane, but the second is possible b/c I'm the voice in YOUR head, not my own.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Kierlionn on September 22, 2010, 02:39:38 AM
He explains somewhere why he became Truthless, it's not some small paragraph, but it's either in the book or I'm quite insane, but the second is possible b/c I'm the voice in YOUR head, not my own.
I believe you just might be insane, I can't recall reading something like that at all and generally I have a good memory of what I have read.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Munin on September 22, 2010, 03:27:41 AM
He explains somewhere why he became Truthless, it's not some small paragraph, but it's either in the book or I'm quite insane, but the second is possible b/c I'm the voice in YOUR head, not my own.
I believe you just might be insane, I can't recall reading something like that at all and generally I have a good memory of what I have read.
Yeah, I... uh... really don't remember anything like that. And there's been a fair amount of discussion about Szeth's crime(s), and this has never come up before.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: happyman on September 22, 2010, 02:27:22 PM
He explains somewhere why he became Truthless, it's not some small paragraph, but it's either in the book or I'm quite insane, but the second is possible b/c I'm the voice in YOUR head, not my own.

Well, until you find some rock-solid quotes, I think things will stay as they are.  The consensus seems to be against this idea.  Szeth thinks about his crimes all the time, but there's no reason to assume they refer to anything before he left Shinovar.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Munin on September 22, 2010, 04:36:53 PM
He explains somewhere why he became Truthless, it's not some small paragraph, but it's either in the book or I'm quite insane, but the second is possible b/c I'm the voice in YOUR head, not my own.

Well, until you find some rock-solid quotes, I think things will stay as they are.  The consensus seems to be against this idea.  Szeth thinks about his crimes all the time, but there's no reason to assume they refer to anything before he left Shinovar.
Oh, I think it's very likely that his crimes were in Shinovar. I just don't think he tried to overthrow the government.

Especially since that wouldn't make any sense in the context of "his punishment demanded they did not. His honor demanded they did."

For that matter, does Shinovar even have a centralized government?
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: guy on September 22, 2010, 05:46:01 PM
i dont think they do, but if they do i am calling szeths dad to be somebody super important, he specifically asks people not to call him by his fathers name because he doesnt believe his dad should be assciated with him
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Eerongal on September 22, 2010, 05:58:04 PM
I'm quite insane

Oh, please, kaz, we knew this LONG before WoK came out!  ;D
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Guinevere on September 22, 2010, 11:30:43 PM
It's entirely possible that the Shin's belief in a hell of torment is related to things taught to them by the Heralds.  It's probably not a coincidence.  It's probably a small piece of truth that has been passed down through the ages, changed by the passage.  I don't read anything deeper here, or see that it teaches us anything about Truthless.

The only problem I have with this idea is that the Shin don't believe in the Heralds.  That's a Vorin idea.  If they don't believe in the Voidbringers, then why would they believe something taught by the Heralds?   

It COULD be however that there is an underlying idea that both the Heralds AND the Shin believe in: Oaths.  Both the Heralds and Szeth are held by Oaths and whatever honor held the Heralds to theirs (until the end) is holding Szeth to his.  Though the Heralds took their Oath of their own volition, while Szeth's was a punishment.

I thought for a long time that perhaps it was some sort of magical force holding Szeth to his Oathstone and that it would be impossible for him to go against it, but now I'm thinking that he could turn his back on it, the same way the Heralds turned their backs on their Oathpact.  (Though, I'm pretty sure we'll see how that turned out for them as the story unfolds.  I'm guessing probably not good.  Talanel and they are going to have some words...)  Though as he says multiple times, he feels like he deserves his punishment; every time he "commits a sin" he feels more and more deserving of future sins/punishment.  I feel bad because I really like Szeth, but it's hard to escape a cycle like that.  His depression/honor is what holds him to his Oath, more than any exterior force.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Wolfstar on September 22, 2010, 11:52:53 PM
Sorry Kaz, I don't recall that at all.  However, this is easy to prove/disprove... Szeth is limited to the prologue and interludes in this book, so covering all his ground shouldn't be that hard.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Stormblessed on September 23, 2010, 02:10:41 AM
It's entirely possible that the Shin's belief in a hell of torment is related to things taught to them by the Heralds.  It's probably not a coincidence.  It's probably a small piece of truth that has been passed down through the ages, changed by the passage.  I don't read anything deeper here, or see that it teaches us anything about Truthless.

The only problem I have with this idea is that the Shin don't believe in the Heralds.  That's a Vorin idea.  If they don't believe in the Voidbringers, then why would they believe something taught by the Heralds?   

They might not believe in the Heralds, but that doesn't mean that at some time the Heralds told the Shin about Hell and the idea stuck. Remember, just because they dont believe in the heralds religiously, doesn't mean that had interactions with them during a desolation.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: BlueRuin on September 23, 2010, 04:20:37 AM
I'm wondering if being Truthless could be a Shin cultural issue more than a spren/Herald/Oath breaking type thing.

In the Rysn chapter, Vstim mentions that he acquired Szeth by way of Thresh/the farmer. Vstim tells Rysn that the farmer's warriors are "the lowliest men like slaves" and they are "traded between houses by way of little stones that signify ownership". He says, "any man who picks up a weapon must join them and be treated the same."  In another chapter, it was mentioned that the Shin gave Szeth the Shardblade and sent him out into the world.

Maybe Szeth was the farmer's slave and aspired to a higher social status, or maybe he picked up a weapon under some circumstance and refused to be treated like the other warriors? This could also fit if he was high born and picked up a weapon, but refused to be treated like a slave. In refusing a weapon, he was punished with carrying the Shardblade.

I don't know. I even looked up the word truthless to see if that would yield any clues. I found the following meanings: devoid of truth, dishonest; spurious  (of illegitimate birth - maybe there's something here?); corresponding to something without having its genuine qualities; falsified or erroneously attributed; deceitful nature or quality.

I'm probably way off, but maybe being Truthless means something along these lines.
 

Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Munin on September 23, 2010, 04:54:19 AM
I'm wondering if being Truthless could be a Shin cultural issue more than a spren/Herald/Oath breaking type thing.

In the Rysn chapter, Vstim mentions that he acquired Szeth by way of Thresh/the farmer. Vstim tells Rysn that the farmer's warriors are "the lowliest men like slaves" and they are "traded between houses by way of little stones that signify ownership". He says, "any man who picks up a weapon must join them and be treated the same."  In another chapter, it was mentioned that the Shin gave Szeth the Shardblade and sent him out into the world.

Maybe Szeth was the farmer's slave and aspired to a higher social status, or maybe he picked up a weapon under some circumstance and refused to be treated like the other warriors? This could also fit if he was high born and picked up a weapon, but refused to be treated like a slave. In refusing a weapon, he was punished with carrying the Shardblade.

I don't know. I even looked up the word truthless to see if that would yield any clues. I found the following meanings: devoid of truth, dishonest; spurious  (of illegitimate birth - maybe there's something here?); corresponding to something without having its genuine qualities; falsified or erroneously attributed; deceitful nature or quality.

I'm probably way off, but maybe being Truthless means something along these lines.
I think you're close.

Surgebinding is probably considered to be a weapon, as well, so that would force him to basically become a slave.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: happyman on September 23, 2010, 02:27:03 PM
It's entirely possible that the Shin's belief in a hell of torment is related to things taught to them by the Heralds.  It's probably not a coincidence.  It's probably a small piece of truth that has been passed down through the ages, changed by the passage.  I don't read anything deeper here, or see that it teaches us anything about Truthless.

The only problem I have with this idea is that the Shin don't believe in the Heralds.  That's a Vorin idea.  If they don't believe in the Voidbringers, then why would they believe something taught by the Heralds?

That's the thing:  Nobody knows where these old ideas came from any more.  They are long since lost in the mists of time.  If the Heralds ever mentioned what happened to them between Desolations and the idea spread, the notion of Hell could have become quite broadly accepted without the source being generally known.  After the last Desolation, the ideas would continue to develop on their own, and some would probably even jump religions without anyone knowing how or why.

I'm just saying that there is a potential source for the commonality of belief.  It would have happened a long time ago, and not followed a strictly logical progression, but that's people for you.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: LoneStar on September 23, 2010, 09:41:16 PM
I'm wondering if being Truthless could be a Shin cultural issue more than a spren/Herald/Oath breaking type thing.

In the Rysn chapter, Vstim mentions that he acquired Szeth by way of Thresh/the farmer. Vstim tells Rysn that the farmer's warriors are "the lowliest men like slaves" and they are "traded between houses by way of little stones that signify ownership". He says, "any man who picks up a weapon must join them and be treated the same."  In another chapter, it was mentioned that the Shin gave Szeth the Shardblade and sent him out into the world.

Maybe Szeth was the farmer's slave and aspired to a higher social status, or maybe he picked up a weapon under some circumstance and refused to be treated like the other warriors? This could also fit if he was high born and picked up a weapon, but refused to be treated like a slave. In refusing a weapon, he was punished with carrying the Shardblade.

I don't know. I even looked up the word truthless to see if that would yield any clues. I found the following meanings: devoid of truth, dishonest; spurious  (of illegitimate birth - maybe there's something here?); corresponding to something without having its genuine qualities; falsified or erroneously attributed; deceitful nature or quality.

I'm probably way off, but maybe being Truthless means something along these lines.
 



I like this line of thought but think the Honour Spren are involved, at least in Szeth's  case.

The quote from Syl on several occasions "I Bind Things"  is something that keeps tugging at my mind.  maybe Szeth, who could be as old as the Radiants for all we know, did something to break the pact/bond between himself and his Honour Spren causing himself to become Truthless.  In retaliation for this act he may have been bound to his Oath Stone by more compelling means than Honour.  The current tradition of a warrior being honour bound to an Oath Stone could be the cultural evolution of an ancient punishment.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: guy on September 24, 2010, 05:29:41 PM
Szeth isn't bound by something other than his own values, in the end he almost kills Taravangian, but he held himself back, not because he was compelled to, but because he didn't want to lose what honor he had left
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Erunion on September 24, 2010, 05:46:32 PM
I don't think that there is anything magical in the Oathstone, but just to play Devil's Advocate, I'll bring this point up; it could be that the compulsion is a psychological force, and not a physical force. Perhaps the oathstone amplifies Szeth's sense of honour, or perhaps psychologically makes him act certain ways. His mind simply makes up an excuse for how he is forced to act.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: guy on September 24, 2010, 05:50:57 PM
I think if he was compelled that strongly, he wouldnt be able to deny anything asked of him by his owner, including suicide or giving up his shardblade, so I dont think his oathstone is anything but a symbol that he will obey
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Miyabi on September 25, 2010, 03:33:13 AM

Not sure if it was mentioned.

You notice how they treat warriors as the lowest of the low?  By taking up a Shardblade as a Stone Shaman who had retrieved one that was lost of the Shin people, he because Truthless.  The most destructive of all warriors and the lowest of them.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: rjl on September 25, 2010, 11:45:42 AM
I think if he was compelled that strongly, he wouldnt be able to deny anything asked of him by his owner, including suicide or giving up his shardblade, so I dont think his oathstone is anything but a symbol that he will obey
A truthless is commanded to do whatever his current master asks of him other than those two things.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: BlueRuin on September 26, 2010, 02:24:14 AM

Not sure if it was mentioned.

You notice how they treat warriors as the lowest of the low?  By taking up a Shardblade as a Stone Shaman who had retrieved one that was lost of the Shin people, he because Truthless.  The most destructive of all warriors and the lowest of them.


I think Szeth was given the Shardblade by his people. At least King Taravangian says so in the "Recorded in Blood" chapter; he says, " Given that monstrosity of a Shardblade by your people, cast out and absolved of any sin your masters might require of you"

The "lowest of the low" line sticks with me. I keep wondering if someone who was considered the lowest of the low could be so highly trained as a warrior. Warriors don't seem to be revered in Shin; would the Shin go to the trouble of creating highly skilled warriors who are no better than slaves? Or was Szeth's training part of being a stone shaman? Szeth says "Even without a Shardblade, he was dangerous, infused with Stormlight and trained in kammar" (Recorded in Blood chapter). What is kammar? Is that a method of fighting?

Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Miyabi on September 26, 2010, 03:24:35 AM

I think that being a Stone Shaman has something to do with it.  When he says something about them taking the Shardblade from whoever killed him and took it.  So I would imagine he was part of this group, he even says he was a Stone Shaman at one part.  And when eh was involved in that he ended up having to take up the Shardblade.

It could be one of those things that's an honor and a curse at the same time.  The honor of defending your people, but a curse for having to sink so low as to violence and warfare.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Stormblessed on September 26, 2010, 04:14:11 AM
The fact that the Stone Shaman will go to lengths to retrieve the shardblade when Szeth dies shows that Szeth's position is ongoing, and there is probably always a truthless one in existence.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Morsker on September 26, 2010, 05:11:21 AM
Szeth's punishment requires that Voidbringers don't exist though. So it's in someway unique.

Maybe he was simply supposed to retrieve the sword, bringing it back wrapped in cloth without having to wield it himself, but someone's dying words mentioned the Voidbringers, and the person made Szeth swear to protect those who cannot protect themselves.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Stormblessed on September 26, 2010, 09:07:28 AM
Szeth's punishment requires that Voidbringers don't exist though. So it's in someway unique.

Maybe he was simply supposed to retrieve the sword, bringing it back wrapped in cloth without having to wield it himself, but someone's dying words mentioned the Voidbringers, and the person made Szeth swear to protect those who cannot protect themselves.
This makes sense, as we know that to the Shin, a dying man's words are sacred.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: FollowYourMuse on September 27, 2010, 01:03:35 AM
The Stone Shamans gave Szeth   the Shardblade, and that they will retreive it,  How do they do this? we also know that he has experience and knowledge of surgebinding and lashings.

 So far all orther surgebinders are associated with Spren in some way, though we see no evidence with Szeth, I wonder if there is a connection to the Stone Shamans? Or they could they be holding a spen similar to the way that the Fabrials do and that is how Szeth has the surgebinding? 

It is curious too that his words on death, living in torture forever, sounds similar to the Heralds in-between desolations.


Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Munin on September 27, 2010, 01:21:08 AM
So far all orther surgebinders are associated with Spren in some way
"All other surgebinders"?

There's Kaladin and Szeth. That's all we've seen.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Stormblessed on September 27, 2010, 01:26:04 AM
The Stone Shamans gave Szeth   the Shardblade, and that they will retreive it,  How do they do this? we also know that he has experience and knowledge of surgebinding and lashings.

 So far all orther surgebinders are associated with Spren in some way, though we see no evidence with Szeth, I wonder if there is a connection to the Stone Shamans? Or they could they be holding a spen similar to the way that the Fabrials do and that is how Szeth has the surgebinding? 

It is curious too that his words on death, living in torture forever, sounds similar to the Heralds in-between desolations.
Firstly, I think the Stone Shamans just send out the next Truthless candidate to reclaim the shardblade. They will most likely be able to surgebind, which will make it easy for them to kill the shardbearer, especially if he is not prepared for the attack.

Secondly, I reckon that Szeths surgebinding comes from a type of fabriel created by the stone shamans. The spren is imprissoned in the oathstone and that is why Szeth is very connected to this stone.

Lastly, I think that the Shin's idea of death and Hell have come directly from what the Heralds have said, even though they don't believe that the heralds are god-like. They heard from the heralds about the place they go to between desolations, and in time this became incorporated into their teachings of the afterlife.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Morsker on September 27, 2010, 02:29:20 AM
I most like the idea of Szeth being so honorable and coincidentally swearing the oaths that he got the Surgebinding power without a spren.

Alternately, maybe he has a deathspren and can't see it, and is completely unaware of it.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: BlueRuin on September 27, 2010, 03:48:14 AM
Firstly, I think the Stone Shamans just send out the next Truthless candidate to reclaim the shardblade. They will most likely be able to surgebind, which will make it easy for them to kill the shardbearer, especially if he is not prepared for the attack.

Secondly, I reckon that Szeths surgebinding comes from a type of fabriel created by the stone shamans. The spren is imprissoned in the oathstone and that is why Szeth is very connected to this stone.

Interesting idea about the next Truthless. If that is true, I'm wondering what Thresh meant when he said it was not likely they would have another like Szeth. I took it as there wouldn't be another Truthless; perhaps he meant another with Szeth's particular skills?

On another note -and  I hope this isn't going off topic - could Syl be Szeth's spren as well as Kaladin's? She keeps disappearing throughout the story and doesn't explain where she's going. Perhaps Szeth manages to summon her from time to time and she must go to him. However, you'd think if she was drawn to Kaladin, Szeth would start losing his abilities. I don't know. Just wondering where she goes when she disappears. Maybe she goes to a spren hangout.

Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Terrisman243 on September 27, 2010, 05:39:28 AM
Mistborn spoiler!

Quote
Secondly, I reckon that Szeths surgebinding comes from a type of fabriel created by the stone shamans. The spren is imprissoned in the oathstone and that is why Szeth is very connected to this stone.

I like that idea. It may not be right, but it would be pretty cool. There is ten books worth of magical surprises left. After all, if anyone told you at the end of Mistborn that Sazed was going to be a god, you would think they were crazy!
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Stormblessed on September 27, 2010, 06:54:50 AM
Mistborn spoiler!

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Secondly, I reckon that Szeths surgebinding comes from a type of fabriel created by the stone shamans. The spren is imprissoned in the oathstone and that is why Szeth is very connected to this stone.

I like that idea. It may not be right, but it would be pretty cool. There is ten books worth of magical surprises left. After all, if anyone told you at the end of Mistborn that Sazed was going to be a god, you would think they were crazy!

I agree with you there. Knowing Brandon, we really have no idea about whats going to happen. Brandon does give hints, but what those hints really mean is anyones guess. Maybe when the annotations come out we may get more of an idea.

On another note -and  I hope this isn't going off topic - could Syl be Szeth's spren as well as Kaladin's? She keeps disappearing throughout the story and doesn't explain where she's going. Perhaps Szeth manages to summon her from time to time and she must go to him. However, you'd think if she was drawn to Kaladin, Szeth would start losing his abilities. I don't know. Just wondering where she goes when she disappears. Maybe she goes to a spren hangout.

I doubt Syl is bonded with another. If she was bonded to Szeth, then she would already have all her memories when she meets Kaladin. However, I think it is important that she is always disappearing, e.g. like after the Battle of the Tower.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: FollowYourMuse on September 27, 2010, 08:46:06 AM
So far all orther surgebinders are associated with Spren in some way
"All other surgebinders"?

There's Kaladin and Szeth. That's all we've seen.


I should have said all other surgebinder\windfinder\non-fabrial soulcasters (or maybe suspected new radiants?)

Jasnah, Elhokar, Shallan, Kaladin,
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Munin on September 27, 2010, 03:13:37 PM
So far all orther surgebinders are associated with Spren in some way
"All other surgebinders"?

There's Kaladin and Szeth. That's all we've seen.


I should have said all other surgebinder\windfinder\non-fabrial soulcasters (or maybe suspected new radiants?)

Jasnah, Elhokar, Shallan, Kaladin,
Jasnah isn't associated with Spren as far as I know. She seemed surprised when Shallan told her about the symbolspren.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: FollowYourMuse on September 27, 2010, 04:03:02 PM
So far all orther surgebinders are associated with Spren in some way
"All other surgebinders"?

There's Kaladin and Szeth. That's all we've seen.


I should have said all other surgebinder\windfinder\non-fabrial soulcasters (or maybe suspected new radiants?)

Jasnah, Elhokar, Shallan, Kaladin,
Jasnah isn't associated with Spren as far as I know. She seemed surprised when Shallan told her about the symbolspren.
I think Jasnah is only surprised that Shallan see's them out of Shadesmar, we do not have evidence of Jasnah tied to a Spren. 
But Jasnah certainly knows of the connection to Spren and soulcasting, and identified them in Shallan's images. So we know she has seen Spren, and interacted with them in some form relating to soulcasting.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Munin on September 27, 2010, 04:31:10 PM
I think Jasnah is only surprised that Shallan see's them out of Shadesmar, we do not have evidence of Jasnah tied to a Spren. 
But Jasnah certainly knows of the connection to Spren and soulcasting, and identified them in Shallan's images. So we know she has seen Spren, and interacted with them in some form relating to soulcasting.
We know that she knows about Spren. But that could be a result of her studies.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Stormblessed on September 28, 2010, 01:49:18 AM
Jasnah is probably from a different order of knights radiant from Shallan (jasnah = palah and shallan = shash), so she is surprised that the spren Shallan sees are different from her own. But she knows that a spren is needed to soulcast so she just assumes that these creatures must also be spren.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: jacobfake on September 28, 2010, 04:19:51 AM
Didn't it say in the back of the book that all the orders of knights radiant were tied to a specific type of spren? And I guess there could be surgebinders besides the knights but the knights seem to pretty completely be the main ones.

Also, it seems like too much of a coincidence that Szeth has like the most absurdly huge sense of honor, and has the powers that come from bonding with honorspren, for him to not have genuinely bonded at some point. And, if there's always a truthless, what could ever be the point of that (considering that Szeth appears to have been traded away almost immediately after becoming truthless, or at least the guy who traded him wanted to get rid of him so badly that he wouldn't accept payment/threw out what he was given). My theory is that Szeth got his honorspren before he became truthless and now it's like WTF because he's killing people. Or it might be in a morality crisis because his honor is at odds with logical morality, or his spren was trapped in his oathstone as part of his punishment.
My personal theory is yeah, Szeth was a warrior, got traded among people, was picked to have a shardblade, was super honorable, got his spren, followed some ancient traditional command regarding voidbringers, got punished with his spren imprisoned (thus freezing his powers and the spren's sentience at their levels from the time of punishment) and was sent into the world as truthless.

On a side note (I know this is the wrong thread but it will take someone like two seconds to answer) what is the second number in Posts: number out of number. In Brandon's like FAQ he says he's going to explain the levels but as I remember the answer is mysteriously missing.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Galavantes on September 28, 2010, 05:06:26 AM
I've always felt like Szeth was far too competent to just be a random warrior who is being punished for something. To me it seems like the "Truthless of Shin" is a recurring title. An intentional position that for some reason the Shin abhor and yet believe is necessary. Therefore someone is chosen, trained, sworn to oaths of service, and armed with possibly the only shardblade possessed by the Shin.
It is apparent to me that he was given the blade by the shin, as he states at one point that the stone shamans would retrieve it upon his death.

The problem is that we don't know enough about the shin culture to know what the purpose of the Truthless is, or why a particular person is chosen for the position. Szeth clearly believes it to be a punishment, although whether it is a literal punishment or just his own personal idea of a living hell isn't clear yet. But I do believe that its a permanent position that will be filled again if Szeth were to die. Unfortunately at this point it's all RAFO, maybe next book will give us enough info for some serious theorycrafting on the subject.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Rew on September 28, 2010, 06:17:47 AM
Honestly, I think we know quite a bit about Shin culture that helps describe and put together where they came from and what role Truthless have in their society. 
I wrote up three big theories on Stormblessed.com incorporating all these facts together, and while it doesn't account for the specifics (because as has been pointed out we don't have the specifics spelled out for us yet...) I think that a lot of it can be pieced together.

Here are the links to my  theories about the Shin that are most relevant here (the third is specifically about Szeth's Shardblade) because they are long and I don't want to just paste them in here:

http://www.stormblessed.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=173

http://www.stormblessed.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=174

http://www.stormblessed.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=172
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Tilinka on September 28, 2010, 06:00:37 PM
We do know Syl does not like Shardblades on some fundamental level. I figure that must play into this somehow, though I can't pin down the bridge my brain is trying to make yet. :)
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: guy on September 28, 2010, 08:04:03 PM
if there is one surgebinder in Shin, there are bound to be more. also i dont think that Truthless is a position that any normal citizen in Shin can get, i think that Szeths dad is someone very important, and that is why he refuses to go by his fathers name
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Stormblessed on September 29, 2010, 12:39:34 AM
if there is one surgebinder in Shin, there are bound to be more. also i dont think that Truthless is a position that any normal citizen in Shin can get, i think that Szeths dad is someone very important, and that is why he refuses to go by his fathers name
He doesn't go by his father's name because he doesn't want the dishonour of being truthless to be attached to his father's good name.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Munin on September 29, 2010, 01:25:56 AM
if there is one surgebinder in Shin, there are bound to be more. also i dont think that Truthless is a position that any normal citizen in Shin can get, i think that Szeths dad is someone very important, and that is why he refuses to go by his fathers name
He doesn't go by his father's name because he doesn't want the dishonour of being truthless to be attached to his father's good name.
Right, but he doesn't appear to have any such compunction about his grandfather. Either his grandfather is dead and is therefore immune to shame (at least in the Shin culture, if it works that way), or he respects his father greatly.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Stormblessed on September 29, 2010, 04:08:30 AM
if there is one surgebinder in Shin, there are bound to be more. also i dont think that Truthless is a position that any normal citizen in Shin can get, i think that Szeths dad is someone very important, and that is why he refuses to go by his fathers name
He doesn't go by his father's name because he doesn't want the dishonour of being truthless to be attached to his father's good name.
Right, but he doesn't appear to have any such compunction about his grandfather. Either his grandfather is dead and is therefore immune to shame (at least in the Shin culture, if it works that way), or he respects his father greatly.
I was leaning more to the fact the grandfather is dead, and in a place of eternal torment already. Or maybe the grandfather is also a warrior and therefore has not much honour to begin with, while Szeth's father may be a farmer with much honour.
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: guy on September 29, 2010, 05:50:00 PM
I was thinking his father was something like a stone shaman, or someone who was also a surgebinder, and was able to teach it to Szeth, or maybe his father is some kind of ruler or leader in Shin or something
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: Stormblessed on September 30, 2010, 02:36:03 AM
I was thinking his father was something like a stone shaman, or someone who was also a surgebinder, and was able to teach it to Szeth, or maybe his father is some kind of ruler or leader in Shin or something
He is head farmer of all the lands of Shin.  :D
Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: LoneStar on October 01, 2010, 06:28:21 PM
We do know Syl does not like Shardblades on some fundamental level. I figure that must play into this somehow, though I can't pin down the bridge my brain is trying to make yet. :)

Maybe Szeth's shardblade is the reason we have not seen any evidence of him being bound to an Honour Spren, he may have had one initially but had to decide between the two when he chose to fight for those that could not protect themselves. 

Title: Re: Truthless
Post by: EvilNuff on October 11, 2010, 05:11:39 AM
Maybe his honorspren is imprisoned in a gem in his shardblade...