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Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Pechvarry on September 13, 2010, 09:52:53 PM

Title: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: Pechvarry on September 13, 2010, 09:52:53 PM
Howdy.  After months of lurking, I finally found out why it wasn't letting me register an account and rectified it.  So before I start making 13 new topics/day on ridiculous theories, I'd like to ask a couple questions:

A) The Physical/Spiritual/Cognitive realms.  I've seen these referenced a lot and I'd like to ask: what the heck are you talking about?  Can I be pointed towards a Brandon Post/Q&A/annotation where he discusses this?

B) Good ol' Hoid.  As above, can anyone tell me if and where Brandon ever actually stated he's some sort of planet-hopper?Without him actually saying "yeah, he can teleport between planets", I'm inclined to believe there are multiple Hoids.  Shards of his consciousness, so to speak.

Thanks a bunch.
Title: Re: Cosmere Questions (probable spoilers for EVERYTHING!)
Post by: Fireborn on September 13, 2010, 10:25:47 PM
I'm not sure where the answer to your first question is, but Brandon has said that all of the Hoid appearances we've seen are the same person.
Title: Re: Cosmere Questions (probable spoilers for EVERYTHING!)
Post by: Eerongal on September 13, 2010, 10:31:47 PM
I'm not sure where the answer to your first question is, but Brandon has said that all of the Hoid appearances we've seen are the same person.

Yup.

I'm pretty sure the answer to both of these have come from interviews/Q&A and such things at signings and things like that. So far in all of his novels, none of this stuff has been particularly referenced. For example, the Hoid thing, he explained at a signing I went to recently (there are links to video on the forums here, in the topic "STL Signing" or something like that i posted not too long ago) that there is "a character that shows up in all of his books" this would be hoid. While he didn't mention him by name there, this has long been confirmed previously.
Title: Re: Cosmere Questions (probable spoilers for EVERYTHING!)
Post by: SmokinEmber on September 14, 2010, 02:44:25 AM
From a Barnes & Noble Q&A session with Brandon:

"Each of the 'Shardworlds' I've written in (Mistborn, Elantris, Warbreaker, Way of Kings) exists with the same cosmology.  All things exist on three realms--the spiritual, the cognitive, and the physical.  What's going on here is an interaction between the three realms.  I don't to bore you with my made up philosophy, but I do have a cohesive metaphysical reasoning for how my worlds and magic works.  And there is a single plane of existence--called Shadesmar, the Cognative Realm--which connects them all.
 
You will never need to know any of this to read and enjoy my books, but there is an overarching story behind all of them, going on in the background.  Adonalsium, Hoid, the origin of Ati, Leras, the Dor, and the Voice (from Warbreaker) are all tied up in this."

Also:

"Hoid is quite proficient at manipulating Shadesmar for his own ends."

The entire interview can be found here:
http://bookclubs.barnesandnoble.com/t5/Fantasy-Science-Fiction/Post-Questions-For-Brandon-Sanderson-Here/td-p/354645
Title: Re: Cosmere Questions (probable spoilers for EVERYTHING!)
Post by: Ari54 on September 14, 2010, 04:35:52 AM
It should be noted that Shadesmar IS the cognitive realm, if that helps.
Title: Re: Cosmere Questions (probable spoilers for EVERYTHING!)
Post by: Pechvarry on September 14, 2010, 05:56:43 AM
(good stuff)

Thanks a bunch!  Now I feel a bit silly for not posting my questions in that "I'm new" thread.  But now that I have my own... more questions!

Ruin and Preservation apparently created humanity on Scadriel.  How can that be?  Those shards are held by humans, which creates a paradox.  Furthermore, the other planets have humans.

On a related note, the other (known) planets have a normal cycle of life and death, a la Earth-as-we-know-it.  How can this be, when Ruin/Preservation are responsible for the circle of life?

My only possible explanation would be that Adonalsium created all the other worlds we've seen before the shattering, while Ruin and Preservation were still simply 2 aspects of a greater whole.   That would make Scadriel a "second generation planet".  Another feasible explanation: all the planets have or had 2 opposite but paired shards, representing multiple ways of reaching the same conclusion.  e.g. Endowment plus something like Acquisition work together to describe the process by which nutrients of dead life forms feed and become part of what is living. 

Anyway, can anyone clear up this confusion? 
Title: Re: Cosmere Questions (probable spoilers for EVERYTHING!)
Post by: Fireborn on September 14, 2010, 07:57:50 AM
We know that Ruin and Preservation couldn't create by themselves due to the nature of their Shards, whether that holds true for the other Shards remains to be seen.

Hoid, and the theory is the Shardholders too, was there at the shattering of Adonalsium, meaning that there were other planets with humans on them.  The Shards are simply using a template they know works.
Title: Re: Cosmere Questions (probable spoilers for EVERYTHING!)
Post by: Ari54 on September 14, 2010, 09:33:21 AM
Shards don't always come in pairs. For instance, Roshar had 3 shards, (2 now that the Almighty is dead) and as far as we know Warbreaker features only Endowment.
Title: Re: Cosmere Questions (probable spoilers for EVERYTHING!)
Post by: Wolpertinger on September 14, 2010, 09:55:14 AM
Ruin and Preservation apparently created humanity on Scadriel.  How can that be?  Those shards are held by humans, which creates a paradox.  Furthermore, the other planets have humans.

On a related note, the other (known) planets have a normal cycle of life and death, a la Earth-as-we-know-it.  How can this be, when Ruin/Preservation are responsible for the circle of life?

My only possible explanation would be that Adonalsium created all the other worlds we've seen before the shattering, while Ruin and Preservation were still simply 2 aspects of a greater whole.   That would make Scadriel a "second generation planet".  Another feasible explanation: all the planets have or had 2 opposite but paired shards, representing multiple ways of reaching the same conclusion.  e.g. Endowment plus something like Acquisition work together to describe the process by which nutrients of dead life forms feed and become part of what is living. 

Anyway, can anyone clear up this confusion? 

As far as I can tell, you're spot on -- Ruin and Preservation created a 'second generation' planet of humans. Presumably, they created said humans to be identical, or as close to identical as possible, to the humans that they used to be.

I'd guess that Adonalsium(sp?) created humans at some point, possibly on only one world, possibly on many.
 After he shattered into tiny pieces, the newly godlike Shards scattered across the universe, either because the shattering of Adonalsium destroyed whatever world they all mutually originated on in the process, or through mutual agreement (spoken or unspoken) insofar in that they all wanted to go out and be gods instead of kill each other off before they had really 'figured out' their godliness and could fight from a position of strength (and their shards hadn't influenced their inner natures yet, so you wouldn't have ruin/preservation at each other's throats or similar opposite pairings), some combination of the two, or something of the nature of the originating world itself, perhaps.

From there, it's possible that the Shards, depending on their natures, created new humans, with their power alone or with the aid of other shards, or had humans 'colonise' from other worlds (possibly including the original).  This would make especial sense if the 'original' human population was wiped out by the Shattering or possibly by a war of 16 new gods immediately after said shattering.  Gods don't like to be without worshippers, and even those who don't care for worship would like to have a humanity to protect or guide or preserve.. or torment or destroy (Ruin would be an empty power without a Preservation to overcome and tear down - he needs something to create so he can destroy).
Title: Re: Cosmere Questions (probable spoilers for EVERYTHING!)
Post by: Pechvarry on September 14, 2010, 06:19:37 PM
That makes a lot of sense about them making their own humans that are based off what they know (and were) as opposed to inventing humans fresh. 

Though I was still led to believe through the Mistborn trilogy that Ruin and Preservation were responsible for the circle of life of the planet.  In a very mythology-like "and that's why this happens" sort of way, I thought things were born and lived because of Preservation and decayed and withered due to Ruin's touch, with the certain knowledge that without Ruin, Preservation would eventually become self-defeating.  If this is true, it means the other worlds need a reason to have a cohesive physics structure.

Shards don't always come in pairs. For instance, Roshar had 3 shards, (2 now that the Almighty is dead) and as far as we know Warbreaker features only Endowment.

While I'm going to readily embrace what we know (what you said above) as the easiest and most straightforward solution, I'm not going to discount the possibility that we don't know everything.  For example, 2 could've been responsible for establishing Roshar, and then Odium could've swooped in and said "I want this one!"  Likewise, Endowment could have a counterpart whose simply been absent for one reason or another since the founding of the Warbreaker planet (I can never remember the name!).  Of course, if Endowment had a counterpart, it would likely be something that gives nothing -- not even destruction.  So perhaps it simply has no magic system to share or even influence on the land -- a dud shard.
Title: Re: Cosmere Questions (probable spoilers for EVERYTHING!)
Post by: ROSHtafARian on September 14, 2010, 07:10:59 PM
Well I believe Brandon has specifically said in interviews that not all planets have or ever had two shards. 
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for all works***
Post by: Nessa on September 14, 2010, 07:11:34 PM
Since you guys asked, I stickied this topic.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: lexluthorxiv on September 16, 2010, 09:40:28 AM
@pechvary Thank you SO much for making this post. I was totally wondering the same stuff.  I finally (kinda sorta) feel i understand what's going on.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: Pechvarry on September 16, 2010, 08:09:00 PM
Unfortunately, I'm not sure this is the thread that should've been stickied.   Since it is, at some point I'll probably edit the main post or add a new post of common info.  The big one being "YES, ELANTRIS, MISTBORN TRILOGY, WARBREAKER, AND THE STORMLIGHT ARCHIVES ARE ALL IN THE SAME UNIVERSE."
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: Stormblessed on September 17, 2010, 12:07:34 PM
I've heard the words Physical/Spiritual/Cognitive realms a lot and I'm wondering what they mean.

Obviously the physical world is the world where the books are set.

I'm not to sure what the spiritual world is. I'm assuming it has something to do with belief and the shards of Adonalsium.

BUT what the hell is the cognitive realm? I know its Shadsmar, but thats all I understand. I tried looking cognitive up in the dictionary and got totally lost. Can someone clear this up for me?

P.S. Peter (or even Brandon) if you see this I would much appreciate a little hint. I'm in Australia and can't possibly make it to any of the signings to ask the questions personally.

Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: Munin on September 17, 2010, 01:17:14 PM
Cognitive has to do with thought, so the cognitive realm would be the realm of the mind.
Title: Re: Cosmere Questions (probable spoilers for EVERYTHING!)
Post by: happyman on September 17, 2010, 10:37:45 PM
That makes a lot of sense about them making their own humans that are based off what they know (and were) as opposed to inventing humans fresh. 

Though I was still led to believe through the Mistborn trilogy that Ruin and Preservation were responsible for the circle of life of the planet.  In a very mythology-like "and that's why this happens" sort of way, I thought things were born and lived because of Preservation and decayed and withered due to Ruin's touch, with the certain knowledge that without Ruin, Preservation would eventually become self-defeating.  If this is true, it means the other worlds need a reason to have a cohesive physics structure.

Shards don't always come in pairs. For instance, Roshar had 3 shards, (2 now that the Almighty is dead) and as far as we know Warbreaker features only Endowment.

While I'm going to readily embrace what we know (what you said above) as the easiest and most straightforward solution, I'm not going to discount the possibility that we don't know everything.  For example, 2 could've been responsible for establishing Roshar, and then Odium could've swooped in and said "I want this one!"  Likewise, Endowment could have a counterpart whose simply been absent for one reason or another since the founding of the Warbreaker planet (I can never remember the name!).  Of course, if Endowment had a counterpart, it would likely be something that gives nothing -- not even destruction.  So perhaps it simply has no magic system to share or even influence on the land -- a dud shard.

Just one correction:  The three that would have been involved with Roshar would have been *before* Odium showed up.  At least, that's the simplest reading of the evidence.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: hubay on September 17, 2010, 11:29:02 PM
Unfortunately, I'm not sure this is the thread that should've been stickied.   Since it is, at some point I'll probably edit the main post or add a new post of common info.  The big one being "YES, ELANTRIS, MISTBORN TRILOGY, WARBREAKER, AND THE STORMLIGHT ARCHIVES ARE ALL IN THE SAME UNIVERSE."

there's an older thread that explains all the hoid sightings, if I remember correctly. You could mine that for essential info. Otherwise one of us could build a thread that gives a basic "welcome to the cosmere" sort of explanation, and re-petition 'Nessa. It's not a bad thread to sticky really, even though the first post doesn't explain everything right away, it stops people from making new posts, which is the whole idea behind a sticky.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: Brenna on September 18, 2010, 06:09:17 AM
If you build a different "Welcome to the cosmere" post, and want it stickied, just let me know and I'd be happy to do so. :)
Title: Re: Cosmere Questions (probable spoilers for EVERYTHING!)
Post by: Chaos on October 03, 2010, 08:54:36 AM
That makes a lot of sense about them making their own humans that are based off what they know (and were) as opposed to inventing humans fresh. 

Though I was still led to believe through the Mistborn trilogy that Ruin and Preservation were responsible for the circle of life of the planet.  In a very mythology-like "and that's why this happens" sort of way, I thought things were born and lived because of Preservation and decayed and withered due to Ruin's touch, with the certain knowledge that without Ruin, Preservation would eventually become self-defeating.  If this is true, it means the other worlds need a reason to have a cohesive physics structure.

Shards don't always come in pairs. For instance, Roshar had 3 shards, (2 now that the Almighty is dead) and as far as we know Warbreaker features only Endowment.

While I'm going to readily embrace what we know (what you said above) as the easiest and most straightforward solution, I'm not going to discount the possibility that we don't know everything.  For example, 2 could've been responsible for establishing Roshar, and then Odium could've swooped in and said "I want this one!"  Likewise, Endowment could have a counterpart whose simply been absent for one reason or another since the founding of the Warbreaker planet (I can never remember the name!).  Of course, if Endowment had a counterpart, it would likely be something that gives nothing -- not even destruction.  So perhaps it simply has no magic system to share or even influence on the land -- a dud shard.

Just one correction:  The three that would have been involved with Roshar would have been *before* Odium showed up.  At least, that's the simplest reading of the evidence.

I haven't been on TWG for a while, but I was pretty darn sure Brandon said there were three Shards on Roshar. If he said that, that surely includes Odium.

EDIT: I have looked in one of my emails. It confirms that there are three. Like so:

Quote
18. How many Shards have existed on Roshar?

ANSWER: Three

That pretty much covers it.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: brycex99 on October 04, 2010, 03:02:11 AM
Even if there are 3 shards unique to Roshar, considering what we know about Odium and his interaction in other worlds, we may see more than 3 shards in action.  So, at this point I assume Odium is one of the shards that Brandon was speaking about, but that doesn't necessarily have to be true.  Odium is different somehow than others we have seen so far, because it has taken an interest in at least 2 worlds.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: Amphictyon on October 08, 2010, 10:36:52 PM
This all raises a couple questions I haven't seen answered anywhere here.  People are saying that the shards created humans because it's probable that humans are "what they know/knew." So now this means that there was a planet that try originated from, a home planet, or original planet.  Which planet would that be?  One of the worlds that Brandon Sanderson has written about?  Or should we assume that there's an unknown planet out there that he hasn't written about but is considered the planet where life originated from?

Now in regards to Roshar, I might be remembering wrong, but I remember the number 17, in regards to the Desolations or the Voidbringers?  Is that right?  I do for sure remember different names regarding the desolations with Odium being the final Desolation.  If Odium is being considered one of these shards what of these other names mentioned?  I don't have my book with me to give examples as I'm writing from my phone, but I believe proof was in a few of the transcriptions before each chapter.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: Pechvarry on October 09, 2010, 07:40:07 PM
I can't speak for the second half of your post, but for the first half:

For all we know, that first planet was adonalsium itself.  Maybe Adonalsium is the fabric of our universe exploding into shards which spun out new humans and new universes.  Who knows what Brandon's thinking.  The point I'm apparently trying to make is: that planet/plane/universe of the past doesn't have to exist any longer.  In fact, it likely doesn't.  I really don't think it's possible that any of the known planets are "ground zero", but Roshar seems the most feasible (to me).

Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: Stormblessed on October 10, 2010, 03:11:21 AM
It almost sounds like the Big Bang.  :P
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: Pechvarry on October 11, 2010, 08:31:35 PM
It's honestly what I've been seeing it as: a divine take on the Big Bang.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: Amphictyon on October 14, 2010, 03:40:16 AM
A divine take on the Big Bang where the stars are trying to destroy/protect humanity?  It's interesting. :)
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: Melriken on January 24, 2011, 04:09:04 AM
Now in regards to Roshar, I might be remembering wrong, but I remember the number 17, in regards to the Desolations or the Voidbringers?  Is that right?  I do for sure remember different names regarding the desolations with Odium being the final Desolation.  If Odium is being considered one of these shards what of these other names mentioned?  I don't have my book with me to give examples as I'm writing from my phone, but I believe proof was in a few of the transcriptions before each chapter.
The Chapter Epitaphs from Chapter 2 are what you are thinking of, they are a letter we assume is from Hoid, and is being sent to either The Almighty (unlikely) or Cultivation (the other shard (god) on Roshar)

Quote from:
12 - Old Friend, I hope this missive finds you well. Though, as you are now essentially immortal, I would guess that wellness on your part is something of a given.
13 - I realize that you are probably still angry. That is pleasant to know. Much as your perpetual health, I have come to rely upon your dissatisfaction with me. It is one of the cosmere's great constants, I should think.
14 - let me first assure you that the element is quite safe. I have found a good home for it. I protect its safety like I protect my own skin, you might say.
15 - You do not agree with my quest. I understand that, so much as it is possible to understand someone with whom I disagree so completley.
16 - Seven and a half years ago
17 - Might I be quite frank? Before, you asked why I was so concerned. It is for the following reason:
18 - Ati was once a kind and generous man, and you saw what became of him. Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I have ever met.
19 - He holds the most frightening and terrible of all of the shards. Ponder on that for a time, you old reptile, and tell me if your insistence on nonintervention holds firm. Because I assure you, Rayse will not be similarly inhibited.
20 - Seven years ago
21 - One need only look at the aftermath of his brief visit to Sel to see proof of what I say.
22 - In case you have turned a blind eye to that disaster, know that Aona and Skai are both dead, and that which they held has been splintered. Presumably to prevent anyone from rising up to challenge Rayse.
23 - You have accused me of arrogance in my quest. You have accused me of perpetuating my grudge against Rayse and Bavadin. Both accusations are true.
24 - Neither point makes the things I have written to you here untrue.
25 - Seven years ago
26 - I am being chased. Your friends of the Seventeenth Shard, I suspect. I believe they're still lost, following a false trail I left for them. They'll be happier that way. I doubt they have any inkling of what to do with me should they actually catch me.
27 - If anything I have said makes a glimmer of sense to you, I trust that you'll call them off. Or maybe you could astound me and ask them to do something productive for once.
28 - For I have never been dedicated to a more important purpose, and the very pillars of the sky will shake with the results of our war here. I ask you again. Support me. Do not stand aside and let disaster consume more lives. I've never begged you for something before, old friend.
I do so now.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: happyman on January 26, 2011, 12:29:47 AM
Now in regards to Roshar, I might be remembering wrong, but I remember the number 17, in regards to the Desolations or the Voidbringers?  Is that right?  I do for sure remember different names regarding the desolations with Odium being the final Desolation.  If Odium is being considered one of these shards what of these other names mentioned?  I don't have my book with me to give examples as I'm writing from my phone, but I believe proof was in a few of the transcriptions before each chapter.
The Chapter Epitaphs from Chapter 2 are what you are thinking of, they are a letter we assume is from Hoid, and is being sent to either The Almighty (unlikely) or Cultivation (the other shard (god) on Roshar)

Quote from:
12 - Old Friend, I hope this missive finds you well. Though, as you are now essentially immortal, I would guess that wellness on your part is something of a given.
13 - I realize that you are probably still angry. That is pleasant to know. Much as your perpetual health, I have come to rely upon your dissatisfaction with me. It is one of the cosmere's great constants, I should think.
14 - let me first assure you that the element is quite safe. I have found a good home for it. I protect its safety like I protect my own skin, you might say.
15 - You do not agree with my quest. I understand that, so much as it is possible to understand someone with whom I disagree so completley.
16 - Seven and a half years ago
17 - Might I be quite frank? Before, you asked why I was so concerned. It is for the following reason:
18 - Ati was once a kind and generous man, and you saw what became of him. Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I have ever met.
19 - He holds the most frightening and terrible of all of the shards. Ponder on that for a time, you old reptile, and tell me if your insistence on nonintervention holds firm. Because I assure you, Rayse will not be similarly inhibited.
20 - Seven years ago
21 - One need only look at the aftermath of his brief visit to Sel to see proof of what I say.
22 - In case you have turned a blind eye to that disaster, know that Aona and Skai are both dead, and that which they held has been splintered. Presumably to prevent anyone from rising up to challenge Rayse.
23 - You have accused me of arrogance in my quest. You have accused me of perpetuating my grudge against Rayse and Bavadin. Both accusations are true.
24 - Neither point makes the things I have written to you here untrue.
25 - Seven years ago
26 - I am being chased. Your friends of the Seventeenth Shard, I suspect. I believe they're still lost, following a false trail I left for them. They'll be happier that way. I doubt they have any inkling of what to do with me should they actually catch me.
27 - If anything I have said makes a glimmer of sense to you, I trust that you'll call them off. Or maybe you could astound me and ask them to do something productive for once.
28 - For I have never been dedicated to a more important purpose, and the very pillars of the sky will shake with the results of our war here. I ask you again. Support me. Do not stand aside and let disaster consume more lives. I've never begged you for something before, old friend.
I do so now.

For the record, there is a third theory that the recipient of the letter is somebody that has never been seen in the published works.  This is my stance, for lots of reasons.  It is claimed by some that Brandon's unpublished works have some much better candidates.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: Melriken on January 27, 2011, 05:57:16 AM
For the record, there is a third theory that the recipient of the letter is somebody that has never been seen in the published works.  This is my stance, for lots of reasons.  It is claimed by some that Brandon's unpublished works have some much better candidates.
Yes, I hadn't intended to state it the way I did. I had intended to say it more along the lines of "and is likely being sent to either X or Y". 

I think an argument could be made that Sazed may be the recipient of the letter given that the recipient needs to be someone who has taken up a Shard recently. And there are several shards we know nothing of, any one of which could be the recipient.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: happyman on January 27, 2011, 07:38:51 PM
For the record, there is a third theory that the recipient of the letter is somebody that has never been seen in the published works.  This is my stance, for lots of reasons.  It is claimed by some that Brandon's unpublished works have some much better candidates.
Yes, I hadn't intended to state it the way I did. I had intended to say it more along the lines of "and is likely being sent to either X or Y". 

I think an argument could be made that Sazed may be the recipient of the letter given that the recipient needs to be someone who has taken up a Shard recently. And there are several shards we know nothing of, any one of which could be the recipient.

The person who the letter is addressed to is functionally immortal.  That doesn't mean they picked up a shard recently.  There are probably other ways to become immortal in the Cosmere.  I would actually put down money against the recipient holding a Shard.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: Melriken on January 27, 2011, 09:33:13 PM
The person who the letter is addressed to is functionally immortal.  That doesn't mean they picked up a shard recently.  There are probably other ways to become immortal in the Cosmere.  I would actually put down money against the recipient holding a Shard.
Again yes, I had meant "the recipient needs to be someone who has recently become immortal", fifth heightening from Warbreaker grants immortality I believe (which all of the Returned have).

That said I would take the bet that the recipient does hold a shard as it is required that they be very familiar with not only the existence and power of the Shards, but also with the existence of other planes and the ability to travel to them (something that through Rayse we know the Shards can do).
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: happyman on January 28, 2011, 10:32:35 PM
The person who the letter is addressed to is functionally immortal.  That doesn't mean they picked up a shard recently.  There are probably other ways to become immortal in the Cosmere.  I would actually put down money against the recipient holding a Shard.
Again yes, I had meant "the recipient needs to be someone who has recently become immortal", fifth heightening from Warbreaker grants immortality I believe (which all of the Returned have).

That said I would take the bet that the recipient does hold a shard as it is required that they be very familiar with not only the existence and power of the Shards, but also with the existence of other planes and the ability to travel to them (something that through Rayse we know the Shards can do).

Both Hoid and the Seventeenth Shard do world-jumping.  Hoid's connection to the shards is obscure, and I'd rather not have anybody in the know comment on it, but he doesn't seem like somehow who holds it the way Vin or Sazed (or even Honor) did.  The Seventeenth Shard is almost certainly not actually an actual Shard, and I doubt they have the powers of any shard, but they manage world-jumping somehow.  The Heralds don't hold any shards that we know of, but they somehow manage the trick of functional immortality, and visit other planes in the process.  Shalland went to Shadesmar, and she's not the first.  None of these things seem to require being a shardholder on the order of Odium, Cultivation, or Ruin/Preservation (e.g. Sazed).

More importantly, though, we still have no concept of the back-story behind Adonalsium.  Ati, Leras, Bavadin, and Rayse were all people before they took the powers, and they held them for immensely long periods of time.  Hoid is apparently keeping something very close to him that needs guarding, and we don't know what it is.  There are things involved that we have no concept of.  It seems to me that the recipient of the letter must have been there when Adonalsium shattered, or at least was involved personally with the people involved, but did not gain a shard himself.  Otherwise the whole tone of the letter seems off.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: zas678 on January 29, 2011, 10:49:39 PM
The person who the letter is addressed to is functionally immortal.  That doesn't mean they picked up a shard recently.  There are probably other ways to become immortal in the Cosmere.  I would actually put down money against the recipient holding a Shard.
Again yes, I had meant "the recipient needs to be someone who has recently become immortal", fifth heightening from Warbreaker grants immortality I believe (which all of the Returned have).

That said I would take the bet that the recipient does hold a shard as it is required that they be very familiar with not only the existence and power of the Shards, but also with the existence of other planes and the ability to travel to them (something that through Rayse we know the Shards can do).

Both Hoid and the Seventeenth Shard do world-jumping.  Hoid's connection to the shards is obscure, and I'd rather not have anybody in the know comment on it, but he doesn't seem like somehow who holds it the way Vin or Sazed (or even Honor) did.  The Seventeenth Shard is almost certainly not actually an actual Shard, and I doubt they have the powers of any shard, but they manage world-jumping somehow.  The Heralds don't hold any shards that we know of, but they somehow manage the trick of functional immortality, and visit other planes in the process.  Shalland went to Shadesmar, and she's not the first.  None of these things seem to require being a shardholder on the order of Odium, Cultivation, or Ruin/Preservation (e.g. Sazed).

More importantly, though, we still have no concept of the back-story behind Adonalsium.  Ati, Leras, Bavadin, and Rayse were all people before they took the powers, and they held them for immensely long periods of time.  Hoid is apparently keeping something very close to him that needs guarding, and we don't know what it is.  There are things involved that we have no concept of.  It seems to me that the recipient of the letter must have been there when Adonalsium shattered, or at least was involved personally with the people involved, but did not gain a shard himself.  Otherwise the whole tone of the letter seems off.

Don't forget that Hoid was there when Adonalsium shattered. (Which some people thought meant that Hoid may have caused Adonalsium to shatter)
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: Melriken on February 01, 2011, 09:21:05 AM
It seems to me that the recipient of the letter must have been there when Adonalsium shattered, or at least was involved personally with the people involved, but did not gain a shard himself.  Otherwise the whole tone of the letter seems off.
While that is possible, I read the first part to say that the person the letter is to was not immortal when Hoid first met them, and recently became immortal (followed shortly by a falling out between them, this letter marking the first real communication between then and now.

12 - Old Friend, I hope this missive finds you well. Though, as you are now essentially immortal, I would guess that wellness on your part is something of a given.

I would GUESS the recipient has been immortal for 300 years or less.

And as I mentioned above, Immortality does not require a shard, nor does planet hopping, or knowledge of the Shards.  Hoid manages all these (and may or may not have a shard), several members of 'The Crew' knew and/or know about the Shards, and there are some people known to not be shardholders who have planet hopped.

However when you put it all together it IMPLIES a shardholder, but you are correct, it doesn't require one.  I just think it likely enough that I would take the bet if someone offered.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: happyman on February 02, 2011, 02:38:07 AM
Well, then, we can leave it that, or make an actual bet.  Before we do, though, I would like to point out that we have never seen long-time shardholders refer to each other by their personal names, but Hoid expects the recipient to know the people, not function, behind the Shards.  Also, addressing the recipient as "you old reptile" points me towards an unexpected type of recipient-I suspect that form of address is not a figure of speach.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: Meetshield on May 16, 2011, 04:45:31 AM
I'm not at all versed on the mythology like those who are discussing here.  I have however read all the books.

There is a lot of shard related symbology in TWOK.  Might it be possible that it is somewhat centrally located to the Cosmere.  Possibly it having 3 shards would indicate that it may be special in relation to the other worlds.

Shard Blades / Shard Plate / Heralds / Hoit playing a larger role in the story than normal.  The general morality of the way of kings is less gritty than the previous books.  The characters seem to have a better sense of the history and spiritual world around them.

In the other "2nd generation" worlds are simpler, the characters and story is focused on a more direct and physical threat.  TWOK seems to be a setting stage for something larger.

A desolation that has repeated, heros that return.

Help me out maybe i'm way off track here.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: zas678 on May 16, 2011, 05:13:33 AM
I think that we will be able to get a lot deeper with WoK than we have with any of the other books, simply because of their giant scope. I think that is also a big reason why there isn't such a primary goal in WoK as there have been in the other books, because it is setting the stage for this giant story.

I also think that they don't have as good of a grasp as we might think. After all, they think the Heralds saved them, the Radiants were corrupt and charlatans. Instead, the Heralds abandoned them, and the Radiants were at least trying to do good, and their magic was very real indeed.

PS, for some more basic info on the Cosmere, look here (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/491-cosmere-101/:)

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Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: happyman on May 16, 2011, 05:26:25 PM
Actually, I'm of the impression that Rosharians have a worse view of history than their other Cosmere counterparts.

The other worlds have a knowledge of what happened in their easily accessible past that makes sense and fits what we know.  In Mistborn, despite TLR, knowledge of the countries and places before his ascension persisted, and they sound perfectly human.  The world was apparently perfectly normal (by our standards) before, and most real historians managed to find that out.

In Warbreaker, we have different groups arguing over the causes of events in their recent past due to their various biases, but the broad details are generally agreed upon (very much like the real world, actually).  The first returned is an almost mythological person, but he undoubtedly existed.  Knowledge of other nations and their achievements was apparently common knowledge among scholars, otherwise Hoid would not have been so free with what he knew (and it may be where he got the info from.)

Elantris also knows what happened up to a point, as far as I can tell.  There is very little evidence of Shard-level meddling occurring within human history as we typically understand it.  If there was, it was very subtle, rather like Ruin's influence during tLR's reign.  Maybe Shard's were related to the Reod, maybe not.  My inclination is that they weren't.

These are all rather like the real world.  By and large, we know what happened, although we very seldom know exactly why it happened.  Very few of the worlds have access to the overarching cosmology, but this overarching cosmology impacts most of the stories only indirectly.

Roshar, on the other hand, is an enigma.  It knows about Shademar, it has in many ways more advanced magic than the other worlds, and yet it's history is a ferocious snarl of mythology, what may be misinformation, and the like.  It's ecosystem is just plain bizarre, and it seems clear that the effects of the Shards are much more prominent than on the other Shardworlds.  Odd.  Something is totally up with it.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: Argent on May 17, 2011, 09:26:11 AM
While you overall write-up is sound, happyman, I should mention that it is a popular and credible theory that the Reod was caused by Rayse (or was it Reyse?) when he killed Aona.  A minor detail, but every piece of knowledge is valuable.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: andygal on May 17, 2011, 09:28:52 AM
Rayse is the correct spelling.

Also, in relation to the topic of discussion it does seem that the Rosharians are more cosmere-aware then the people of other worlds (Jasnah mentions the three realms in a way that suggests they may be wildly known to scholars and uses the term "cosmere", one of the epigraphs mentions Honor, which suggests that they at one point were aware of  the proper name of that Shard), but at the same time they seem very muddled about their own history. 

And for what it's worth, Brandon has said that TSA is *not* going to tell the overarching story of the cosmere, that will be another series.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: happyman on May 17, 2011, 02:43:41 PM
While you overall write-up is sound, happyman, I should mention that it is a popular and credible theory that the Reod was caused by Rayse (or was it Reyse?) when he killed Aona.  A minor detail, but every piece of knowledge is valuable.

Yes.  I know about that theory, but don't consider nearly as likely as a lot of people do.  I am perfectly fine with Elantris being the way the world would be after a long period of neglect caused by the Shard's deaths.  The events of Elantris would just be a side-effect of the world going its own way with no guidance at all.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: OrangePenguin on June 05, 2011, 12:41:03 AM
I have been thinking about the implications of a universal cosmere with a known start date. That of when Adonalsium broke apart into the shards.

This being the case it would be thought that there would be a universal progression of technology within limits. This at first seems to be the case as all of the books are set in an age with medieval/Renaissance style weapons etc.

However it is stated in the Mistborn Trilogy that when The Lord Ruler took power that world was already at this level of technology and The Lord Ruler kept it from advancing.

So if that is the case why hasn't technology advanced to a point past the Mistborn Trilogy on the other worlds?

One thought would be that the Mistborn Trilogy happens chronologically later than the other books. Another thought is that these are books and Brandon Sanderson enjoys righting in a Medieval/Renaissance setting.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: andygal on June 05, 2011, 01:49:21 AM
there are lots of factors that can affect technological development. Add that to the fact that these setting have magic and that's another thing that affects the development of technology.

The Mistborn trilogy takes place before Warbreaker and Wok but after Elantris.

Also in Elantris and WoK magic has been used to provide some of the things that technology provides in the real world, you have rapid communications, via Seons in Elantris and spanreeds in WoK, you have fabrials used for heating, and infused gemstones used for lighting in WoK. So in some sense,these worlds don't need technology as we understand it.

Scadriel (the planet that Mistborn takes place on) developed and will develop again (judging by the information we have on Alloy of Law) more advanced technology then some of the other worlds because their magic is less-well suited to replacing technology then that one other worlds.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: OrangePenguin on June 05, 2011, 02:34:57 AM
Another thought I had is that in Warbreaker (Which I am currenlty about half way through) they use voice to "awaken" things. It is stated at some point(sorry I dont have the exact reference) that the commands must be stated in a clear and understandable way.

This being the case it would seem the language that is being spoken is important as well as how it is being said. If the mumbling the words screws up the command then would not the command being spoken in another language do so aswell?

If that is true than the language must not have changed since the worlds creation by its shardholder/s. So is the language being spoken in Warbreaker the same as the Dawnchant from The Way of Kings?

One would think the shardholders would have spoken the same language. Atleast initially.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: happyman on June 06, 2011, 02:38:49 PM
Another thought I had is that in Warbreaker (Which I am currenlty about half way through) they use voice to "awaken" things. It is stated at some point(sorry I dont have the exact reference) that the commands must be stated in a clear and understandable way.

This being the case it would seem the language that is being spoken is important as well as how it is being said. If the mumbling the words screws up the command then would not the command being spoken in another language do so aswell?

If that is true than the language must not have changed since the worlds creation by its shardholder/s. So is the language being spoken in Warbreaker the same as the Dawnchant from The Way of Kings?

One would think the shardholders would have spoken the same language. Atleast initially.

My response includes very minor spoilers if you're only half way through.  Nothing really important, though.

It's explained later that the commands must be clearly spoken and coherent.  They must also be in the native language of the Awakener.  Nobody knows why, but it suggests that the connection of the spoken words with the intent of the Awakener is what really matters; the language itself is not special.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: whynaut on July 12, 2011, 06:31:06 AM
In the Mistborn books Sanderson has said that in the Mistborn books all of the Lord Ruler's Final Empire consisted in the northern hemisphere of the planet.  He has hinted that he will tell us (likely in the Alloy of Law) what had gone on in the southern hemisphere.

Wouldn't it be interesting if it turned out that on the southern hemisphere it was the land where Warbreaker or one of the other Cosmere book locations took place?  That would put at least two of his books not just in the same universe, but on the same planet.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: andygal on July 12, 2011, 10:00:04 AM
well Roshar is in the same solar system as the planet the unpublished Silence Divine takes place on.........
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: happyman on July 12, 2011, 03:34:12 PM
It would be interesting, and a pretty cool twist.  On the other hand, it doesn't really fit with what we know about the worlds.  For starters, Brandon has said that the three Metallic Arts manifest on the other side of the world as well.  Also, we know the names of the various worlds in the Cosmere, and only Mistborn occurs on Scadriel.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: Peter Ahlstrom on July 12, 2011, 10:04:47 PM
If you're going to Polaris or Comic-Con, there will be a special Alloy of Law giveaway...
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: whynaut on July 21, 2011, 05:47:15 PM
Since they all take place in the Cosmere.  What if a Feruchemist ate some Lerasium, then went and bought enough biochromatic breath to reach the 10th heightening, and then randomly got picked to become an Elantrian?

p.s. I haven't read WoK yet.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: douglas on July 21, 2011, 09:08:20 PM
Since they all take place in the Cosmere.  What if a Feruchemist ate some Lerasium, then went and bought enough biochromatic breath to reach the 10th heightening, and then randomly got picked to become an Elantrian?

p.s. I haven't read WoK yet.
He'd become* Hoid. :P

* After also picking up every WoK magic system, plus all the as yet unpublished ones from other worlds.
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: cromptj on August 17, 2011, 09:33:06 PM
Since they all take place in the Cosmere.  What if a Feruchemist ate some Lerasium, then went and bought enough biochromatic breath to reach the 10th heightening, and then randomly got picked to become an Elantrian?

p.s. I haven't read WoK yet.

That's nothing, what if a Feruchemist, by some twist of fate, somehow found himself with the power of two Shards, which together have the power to create worlds. Wait... That sounds familiar...
Title: Re: Cosmere Discussion ***SPOILERS for ALL books***
Post by: happyman on August 22, 2011, 02:28:15 PM
Since they all take place in the Cosmere.  What if a Feruchemist ate some Lerasium, then went and bought enough biochromatic breath to reach the 10th heightening, and then randomly got picked to become an Elantrian?

p.s. I haven't read WoK yet.

That's nothing, what if a Feruchemist, by some twist of fate, somehow found himself with the power of two Shards, which together have the power to create worlds. Wait... That sounds familiar...

Yeah, but at least those are the powers that he already had access to, via his genetics.  Nobody is quite certain what a normal person would do mixing completely different magics.