Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Wolpertinger on September 09, 2010, 12:30:53 AM
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I've got something of an interesting (that may be obvious or stupid to other people) theory - Perhaps the reason the Almighty's vision were obsessing so much about 'acting with honor', even when asked about Sadeas (I was under the impression although even it was a message, it could still hear what he said and respond within a limited fashion, he IS a 'god')
Perhaps he needed to act honorably even if it would otherwise be inconvenient, because, presumably, acting honorably is the only way you can become attached to an Honorspren - which appears to be the foundation for the Knight Radiant's magic. Essentially, he needs to act honorably so he can revive the Knights Radiant to help fight back the Desolation, as they have no hope in hell of surviving one as is.
You could even go further from there and say that the 'most important words a man can say' are "the words" which fully empowered Kaladin - the oath of the Knights Radiant. (Though this could mean a lot of other things, too.)
It could be either stupid or obvious, but what do people think?
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Perhaps he needed to act honorably even if it would otherwise be inconvenient, because, presumably, acting honorably is the only way you can become attached to an Honorspren - which appears to be the foundation for the Knight Radiant's magic. Essentially, he needs to act honorably so he can revive the Knights Radiant to help fight back the Desolation, as they have no hope in hell of surviving one as is.
I think it's possible to act honorably without opening yourself to be betrayed, so I don't think the Almighty wanted Dalinar to trust Sadeas.
You could even go further from there and say that the 'most important words a man can say' are "the words" which fully empowered Kaladin - the oath of the Knights Radiant. (Though this could mean a lot of other things, too.)
I actually hadn't thought of that. It makes a lot of sense.
Of course, it also wouldn't surprise me if the "most important words" are another plot twist later on.
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I took it as definately an effectively recorded message after the last vision. Also, 'fraid I disagree with it being all about attracting an honourspren, the conversation with Nohadon in one of the visions implies that there are other sorts of spren which can give ppowers other than honourspren. "not all spren are as discerning as honourspren".
As for the most important words a man can say? Maybe "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves." or perhaps "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination."
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I think it's possible to act honorably without opening yourself to be betrayed, so I don't think the Almighty wanted Dalinar to trust Sadeas.
Yeah, I understand that -but the main thing that might have been important there is that he acted honorably to Sadeas - I think trusting him was just a misunderstanding of the message on his part.
I took it as definately an effectively recorded message after the last vision.
Well, it was a vision sent by a deity - it was flexible - he could interact with people in it and change things that happened in the vision (though I highly doubt anything is actually being changed in the past), and the deity in question, while tending to repeat himself, DID respond to prompts, but simply said 'I can't tell you any more' in most cases - perhaps because it was still ultimately a message and a message can't give more information than it has been given.
Also, 'fraid I disagree with it being all about attracting an honourspren, the conversation with Nohadon in one of the visions implies that there are other sorts of spren which can give ppowers other than honourspren. "not all spren are as discerning as honourspren".
As for the most important words a man can say? Maybe "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves." or perhaps "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination."
Yeah, those words are the oaths of the Radiants, which when spoken to an Honorspren gave Kaladin his full abilities. The fact that Syl was constantly going "say the Words! quickly! say the Words!" implied that saying those words had some extra meaning which further empowered Kaladin's bond with Syl.
And even though there are other spren capable of giving power, it might still mean that Dalinar is one who could gain an Honorspren - it does fit his personality perfectly. Even though Kaladin got one first, Kaladin and Dalinar are together now so they might both, together, end up recreating the 'honorspren' branch of the Knights Radiant
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I took it as definately an effectively recorded message after the last vision.
Well, it was a vision sent by a deity - it was flexible - he could interact with people in it and change things that happened in the vision (though I highly doubt anything is actually being changed in the past), and the deity in question, while tending to repeat himself, DID respond to prompts, but simply said 'I can't tell you any more' in most cases - perhaps because it was still ultimately a message and a message can't give more information than it has been given.
I'm not so sure he had any ability to respond to Dalinar. If you look at what the Almighty says and don't read Dalinar's questions, the thought process still makes sense. I can see what Dalinar meant about misinterpreting his statements as responses; they do make sense either way. So I tend to agree with the recording/journal slant.
The only problem with that, though, is how the heck can the Almighty put his hand on Dalinar's shoulder and look in his eyes? Maybe it's just that he can't hear him? Or was the ending something special, since Dalinar hadn't seen that part the first time around?
Too many questions! I hate good books! :p
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Keep in mind that Ati and Leras had no scruples about messing with records. Dalinar's visions might not be completely reliable if the person who's journal is being experienced is dead. Ruin did have a way to mess with the metalmind stored knowledge after all.
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I agree with most of the points made by the original poster. Dallinar acting with honor in order to attract an honorspren makes sense. While it does seem like he could become a radiant through some other spren, we don't know what exactly that entails. Maybe it's obscenely difficult. Maybe not.
In any case, Dallinar is the kind of guy who would attract an honorspren. He had to be pretty close to that to start out with - why not just give him a nudge in the right direction.
That said, I also agree wholeheartedly with the journal/recording point of view of the visions, which kind of slaughters that point, as the Almighty apparently in the last vision didn't know anything about the person(s) who would be seeing the visions. Thus, acting with honor would have to be something that the Almighty wanted to happen no matter who it was that saw the visions, and not something related to Dallinar personally.
I'm starting a reread, now that I've had my quick and eager read. I'll start digging a little more thoroughly this time.
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It just doesn't make sense as a totally uninteractive recording (namely the equivalent of watching a video, or something), because of all the little things he did which were obviously not the actual results of what happened, like slaying the monster with an iron poker, and acting extremely out of character as the guard and the advisor and getting appropriate responses.
I understand that yes, it's likely a 'message', perhaps from an Almighty already dead or perhaps who is currently being slain or was slain just before the series started - but I was more thinking that perhaps a godly message can be more intricate than a mere recording being randomly broadcasted out.
For one, why did it choose Dalinar in particular, but no one else (as far as we know)? Almost no one would have been as receptive to the message in the way Dalinar has. He's a uniquely.. obsessive and honorable persion, who happens to be in a position of power that might be capable of 'uniting' people.
It's possible it was capable of 'seeking out' an appropriate recipient - if it's that complex, it's also possible it could be a message capable at least somewhat self-tailoring itself to the person in question, as well.
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But... Dalinar despite being honorable did not attract an honorspren, Kaladin did.
It can't be so simple a acting honorably because it seems dalinar did (unless his curse is something like that he can't have an honorspren)....
The voice of the almighty was definately a recording with no interaction possible, he said so.
We don't know why the visions were interactive.... That's weird and doesn't make sense from what we know so far.
It will probably be explained but it seems like a hole that dalinar should have thought of. But he's not a scholar or anything, so that could explain why he didn't think of this immediately.
Perhaps Jasnah or another character will discover this and provide an explanation.
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Well, yes - he doesn't have an honorspren by the end of book 1, but it's only book 1 of 10 - I was thinking it could be possible that the Almighty's message is trying to set him up (or perhaps using him to set up as many people as possible) into being able to accept one through whatever means an Honorspren sticks to you. You could probably assume that someone who's immoral or dishonorable or Machiavellian (Sadeas comes to mind) would never be able to associate with an honorspren.
It also sounds dubious that the Almighty's final dying message would be to waste time telepathically encouraging some random guy to be honorable if it had no point. Presumably his message's goal is to do as much as possible to help mankind prepare for the Desolation/Odium/the Everstorm - offering moral advice without any reason behind it sounds a bit iffy.
I can't recall offhand - Syl said that she was very vaguely aware of him and followed him around for quite a bit before he became aware of her.. was there any clues as to what event exactly triggered her bonding to him? I'd think it's very unlikely it's just totally random, especially considering it's totally unprecedented as far as all the POV characters know.
It just seems to make a lot of sense - if Honorspren are of 'binding things toogether' , then having the almighty obsessing over his need to 'unite them!' seems to tie into that concept.
It also would make sense that trying to remake the Knights Radiant (or at least their abilities) would be a pretty sensible goal for someone trying to prepare humanity for this apparent final apocalyptic battle.
If the Knights Radiant in their full power along with all ten of the Heralds had so much trouble during a Desolation, I doubt the powerless, bickering human nations with no real power other than leftover Shardplate and Shardblades they could find from the Knights dissolution without even knowing how they are created or even function, and a single half-dead Herald, who I'm guessing is going to have problems even having people believe he IS a Herald (he's a darkeyes, for one), will stand a ghost of a chance against the Voidbringers.
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For one, why did it choose Dalinar in particular, but no one else (as far as we know)? Almost no one would have been as receptive to the message in the way Dalinar has. He's a uniquely.. obsessive and honorable persion, who happens to be in a position of power that might be capable of 'uniting' people.
In one of the epigraphs (sorry, don't have the book on me to quote it) there is mention that one of the patients had been having visions of some sort for the past 2 years. This was one of those collected by Taravangian. So I'm not sure that Dalinar IS the only one receiving such visions, unless they're completely unrelated.
Either way, it seems like Dalinar is charged with the task of recreating the Knights Radiant. I'm not sure that requires him to become a Surgebinder or even be bonded to a spren at all. He could always be of one of the other orders, as well.
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But... Dalinar despite being honorable did not attract an honorspren, Kaladin did.
It might be that the shards were keeping the honorspren away from Dalinar because Syl has a problem with shardblade. Now that he"s given away the sword and armor he should be able to attract one.
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The aim of attracting an honourspren to one person is unlikely to be the purpose of the visions, one more surgebinder is unlikely to be sufficient to defeat a desolution... They need a general who leads an army of skilled, willing men, and to be such said general will need to be honourable etc.
I see it that the visions were interactive memories followed by a recorded speach.
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But... Dalinar despite being honorable did not attract an honorspren, Kaladin did.
It might be that the shards were keeping the honorspren away from Dalinar because Syl has a problem with shardblade. Now that he"s given away the sword and armor he should be able to attract one.
Very good point! I suspect you may be on to something!
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The aim of attracting an honourspren to one person is unlikely to be the purpose of the visions, one more surgebinder is unlikely to be sufficient to defeat a desolution... They need a general who leads an army of skilled, willing men, and to be such said general will need to be honourable etc.
I see it that the visions were interactive memories followed by a recorded speach.
It could be that, but if it's true one would hope the Almighty set off a lot more plans that we're not aware of yet - like I said earlier, if all the knights radiant orders combined and the ten heralds only barely won, I can't see how an ordinary non-magical army with a few shardblades, one surgebinder, and one weakened herald will have even the slimmest chance.
However, if he could recreate the surgebinder branch of the Knights Radiant (or perhaps even more), and manage to get many surgebinders (or others), then things might be a step towards slightly less doomed.
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then things might be a step towards slightly less doomed.
From what I've seen, this is not how Brandon's books work. We will read because he gives us flashes of hope and amazing action sequences, but he will tear at our hearts and souls the rest of the time. Up until the last couple chapters of the last book, it will appear as though Odium is going to win, just like it appeared that Ruin would triumph or Raoden would fail. At the climax, Brandon will kill off half the characters we have come to know and love over more than a decade. Afterward, we will love him for it even more than we did before.
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As for Dalinar's visions, I see them being exactly what we're told they are. Most likely they're related to his dalliance with the Old Magic (which I personally think comes from Cultivation) in some way. Of course, the important thing to realize here is that Dalinar just found out that the deity he worships is dead and has been dead for some time. I predict a certain amount of bitterness/depression from him in the next few novels.
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then things might be a step towards slightly less doomed.
From what I've seen, this is not how Brandon's books work. We will read because he gives us flashes of hope and amazing action sequences, but he will tear at our hearts and souls the rest of the time. Up until the last couple chapters of the last book, it will appear as though Odium is going to win, just like it appeared that Ruin would triumph or Raoden would fail. At the climax, Brandon will kill off half the characters we have come to know and love over more than a decade. Afterward, we will love him for it even more than we did before.
A haphazard recreation of the Radiants would still fit with that, though - I doubt a recreation would be as powerful or skilled or numerous as the original, and probably wouldn't have all the Shardblades, etc. The Heralds are all gone except for one, too. Having a few new Knights Radiant would be one of those 'flashes of hope' - but in and of itself it would be a drop in the bucket against the True Desolation, presumably.
One thing to also keep in mind is all the previous Desolations were apparently much lesser than the one coming now - they were just 'Desolations' - this one sounds extra-nasty, the 'True Desolation', the 'Everstorm' and all that. Under that context, you could probably doubt that even all the Radiants in their full glory and all the heralds and all the armies of mankind might still lose under ordinary circumstances.
Regaining some of that lost power wouldn't be making things 'too easy' for the main characters by any means.
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Ten books long, we've got one, and we're already speculating about the ending?
I hope we get a better story than that for ten books worth of work. There's gotta be more going on than just a simple battle. I mean, we've already got hints that the story is going to go cosmic.
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Anyone else think that Taravangian might have the visions too? His actions are a bit extreme otherwise, but if he was convinced that was the only way to unite people, it makes a bit more sense. The chapter 66 death quote
“That chanting, that singing, those rasping voices.”—Kaktach 1173, 16 seconds pre-death. A middle-aged potter. Reported seeing strange dreams during highstorms during the last two years.
implies that Dalinar might not be the only one.
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Ten books long, we've got one, and we're already speculating about the ending?
I hope we get a better story than that for ten books worth of work. There's gotta be more going on than just a simple battle. I mean, we've already got hints that the story is going to go cosmic.
To be honest, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Odium isn't the big villain here.
I mean, I'm sure he's a villain, but given the way Brandon's other books have turned out, there might be a bigger one.
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I wouldn't be terribly surprised either.
Just a random though - could "Unite Them" refer to uniting men and Spren, allowing them to become Radiants? This would certainly help man's cause, though granted, it wouldn't help much if he didn't have a united mankind as well. Otherwise, we've just got more Radiants killing each other. No bueno.
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Ten books long, we've got one, and we're already speculating about the ending?
I hope we get a better story than that for ten books worth of work. There's gotta be more going on than just a simple battle. I mean, we've already got hints that the story is going to go cosmic.
Well, we're not exactly speculating about the ending - but it wouldn't be too far-fetched to guess that there will be some massive battles involving huge armies against Voidspawn or something even nastier at some point. We're mostly just speculating as to what the real purposes of the visions are.
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This is Brandon, he's a king of plot twists, if the ending involves an epic battle of men vs parshmen I'll be somewhat shocked.
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I imagine we'll get some thunderclasts and other such awesomeness too. But I agree, I doubt it will end up being Humanity vs Parshendi at the end. Otherwise, we wouldn't have had a big reveal at the end of book one.
That said, I'm a little at a loss as to what it will end up being - but it's only the end of book 1...
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Yeah, I have issues with the Parshendi being the army humanity fights against at the end. Why would they be so respectful in battle if they're this ultimate force of destruction? Still, I'm looking forward to finding more about their 'terrible gods' that Gavilar talked about. Somehow I don't think those gods will end up being large chasmfiends like Gavilar thought.